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.h.
17 Nov 12, 17:05
rooney's fantastic direct play, he's equally good at the link up play.. its a shame his wikipedia page doesnt quote assists because i bet he has more assists per game than cassano, too.

he's a brilliant direct threat, utterly utterly world class.

he has nice little touches to beat players, he can do decent through balls, he knows how to orchestrate attacking play, he has a good set of skills in his repetoire between playing out wide or inside if needed, set pieces... just everything, very good player.

aditiya
17 Nov 12, 17:31
I `ve been a stalker for a very very long time. . . . And i really respect your opinion browha, and i`m quite amazed with your knowledge regarding youth players or youth development. . . But i gotta disagree with you regarding ibrA, i admited it, back then i was an ibra fan boy but still, i`ll try to see matters objectively, ibra talent is such joy to watch i totally disagree with you and i`ll strongly believed that he is world class, no explanation needed. . . .His performance, his career, all justified hiss class. . . . Only a handfull of people that came close, emulated, or surpass ibra class while played for inter[ronaldo,milito,eto`o].. .Ronaldo is way better than ibra, best striker in the world period, recoba and baggio were crazy talented but they were unfortunate. . . Ibra is a lot better than bobo. . . beside all the name that i mention, only ruben sosa that came close to ibra talent as a player. . . Well maybe not too close, if ibra was 8 then sosa was 7.3. . . And i'm sorry, i didn't know inter strikers before ruben sosa era, therefore i can't judge them. . . . And then again i respected your opinion. . . . . .Because the term world class is too vague, and there's no proper variable that could help us determine wether he is very very good or motchafucking world class




p.s why i can't thank anyone yet?

Bluenine
17 Nov 12, 17:33
Here is an article I wrote comparing Ibrahimovic's final goal against England, comparsed to some of his best goals before... Greatest Goal Ever? Zlatan Ibrahimovic's Top 5 Goals (http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/11/17/Ibrahimovic-Top-5-Goals.aspx)

Anyone remember this gem (http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/11/17/Ibrahimovic-Top-5-Goals.aspx) he scored for us against Bologna?

.h.
17 Nov 12, 17:38
I've never said he isnt a joy to watch.

I love watching Ibrahimovic. I really enjoy it. I think he's better than most 'very good' players, he's in a class of his own, but that class is slightly below the best strikers in the game right now.

Anyway, like I said, I can understand why people think he is world class. I just disagree. I don't have any problem with people who disagree with me, I do have an issue with blind ignorance to the facts :)


Like I said, I respect the opinion of people who disagree that Ibrahimovic is not world class. Fine, no big deal. As you say, the term is very vague, and its too subjective. But in my personal definition, he's not.


:)

---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------


Here is an article I wrote comparing Ibrahimovic's final goal against England, comparsed to some of his best goals before... Greatest Goal Ever? Zlatan Ibrahimovic's Top 5 Goals (http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/11/17/Ibrahimovic-Top-5-Goals.aspx)

Anyone remember this gem (http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/11/17/Ibrahimovic-Top-5-Goals.aspx) he scored for us against Bologna?

oh man how can any real inter fan not remember that goal against bologna? I jizzed myself for days over it, showed it to all my friends.

---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

You cant thank anyone till you have 10 posts, iirc

aditiya
17 Nov 12, 17:38
Ok browha, really nice exchanging views with you. . . . Great job on the article btw

.h.
17 Nov 12, 17:41
Thank you. Appreciate the feedback. :)

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 17:43
most footballes in there interviewers ave seen say ibra is one of there favourite players. if ibras not world class then no mofther fucker is tbh

.h.
17 Nov 12, 17:49
yeah, and eden hazard says his brother thorgen is better than him...

i'm not saying he isnt GOOD. He's VERY VERY fucking good. I'm not saying he isnt talented, or that he cant do some UNBELIEVABLE things with the ball. But he lacks the consistency and performances at the top tier to justify any sort of world class crown.

I mean, at what point do we declare it? You have to perform well just in your league to be world class? You have to perform well in the 2nd division to be world class?

No. You have to perform well consistently at the absolute top tier of football. I'm not saying you have to win a CL to be world class, but you have to be competitive with the best players on that level. And he simply is not.

Jimmy Page
17 Nov 12, 18:07
The thing is that he has put on fantastic performences in diffrent leagues, in diffrent teams.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 18:19
well you said falcao was world class so by that logic he int then. his biggest claim to fame was to score 4 goals in a semi meaningless game against chelsea(very good player) . been top scorrer and( there abouts )in probably the hardest league to score in for years is enough to be called world class

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 19:09
Milito and Eto'o scored against big teams / top defenders, so they were world class :challenge: while Il Nose was :yao: oh wait, he can score some important goals against Arsenal's 'world class' defenders :yao:

Ibrahimovic scored for and against us in the Derby della Madonnina, he scored against us while playing for Juventus and he scored in El Clasico. He scored with Milan against Barcelona and against Juventus. He scored the crucial goals against Parma 2008 and he scored in the final of the Copa del Rey. He is the only player who scored in the Champions League for six different teams and he is the only player who scored at least two goals in three different Euros (also against teams like Italy, Spain and France).

Edit: And he scored more goals in the Champions League than Eto, RvP or Rooney. So suck his nose. :pazzini:

TheKingOfRome
17 Nov 12, 19:18
rooney's fantastic direct play, he's equally good at the link up play.. its a shame his wikipedia page doesnt quote assists because i bet he has more assists per game than cassano, too.

he's a brilliant direct threat, utterly utterly world class.

he has nice little touches to beat players, he can do decent through balls, he knows how to orchestrate attacking play, he has a good set of skills in his repetoire between playing out wide or inside if needed, set pieces... just everything, very good player.

you can bring up all the stats about rooney you want... it wont change the fact that hes robbing a living hes over hyped and over rated especially by the british public.... also your forgetting rooney has bin at united for the majority of his career and played every game that he hasnt bin injured or banned, so of course his stats are gonna look decent. cassano has bin to 6 different clubs also has missed alot of games because cassano is cassano... if cassano kept his head on he would of easily surpassed rooneys stats, hes more technically gifted than rooney ever will be and he reads the game better than rooney and can weight passes better than rooney... your quite clearly a fan boy

.h.
17 Nov 12, 19:23
you can bring up all the stats about rooney you want... it wont change the fact that hes robbing a living hes over hyped and over rated especially by the british public.... also your forgetting rooney has bin at united for the majority of his career and played every game that he hasnt bin injured or banned, so of course his stats are gonna look decent. cassano has bin to 6 different clubs also has missed alot of games because cassano is cassano... if cassano kept his head on he would of easily surpassed rooneys stats, hes more technically gifted than rooney ever will be and he reads the game better than rooney and can weight passes better than rooney... your quite clearly a fan boy

yeah, a fan boy who despises the shit out of united, doesnt give one flying fuck about the premiership OR the england national team?

I've been saving this for a while, but its time to roll


facepalm. facepalm facepalm facepalm



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given your general mannerisms, I'm guessing I supported Inter and only Inter since before you were born ;)

Ffi201zi002tlis
17 Nov 12, 20:19
Ibrahimovic scored for and against us in the Derby della Madonnina, he scored against us while playing for Juventus and he scored in El Clasico. He scored with Milan against Barcelona and against Juventus. He scored the crucial goals against Parma 2008 and he scored in the final of the Copa del Rey. He is the only player who scored in the Champions League for six different teams and he is the only player who scored at least two goals in three different Euros (also against teams like Italy, Spain and France).
06/07 : 2 goals against Bbilan (thanks to Jankulovski, Bonera, Kaladze,... :excitedeyes:) which was total average in Serie A (although they won CL in that season), 0 goals in CL :yao: (he played 4 games against both Bayern and Valencia). And dont forger that Bayern was horrible that year.
07/08 : zero against both Bbilan and Rube, and ofcourse invisible mode against Loserfool in CL (played both home and away, he made Benitez looks like best coach ever :yao:)
08/09 : He played all 4 games against Bbilan and Rube and still cant score :yao: cant score against Man Utd in both home and away games (huh? Did Evans play the game of his life when he faced Il Nose ? :yao:)
09/10 : 4 games against us and :yao: but hey, atleast he scored 2 against Arsenal 'world class' defenders and 1 in EL Clasico (dont forget Real in 09/10 cant get past Lyon :troll:)
10/11 : scored 1 against us from a fake penalty, 1 against Rube when Bbilan already lost in that game :yao: zero against Real-Mourinho :oblivious:
11/12 : zero against Rube as usual :yao: and big news, he scored 2 against us (1 from penalty ofcourse :oblivious:)

so much :yao:

.h.
17 Nov 12, 20:23
you did what i couldnt be fucked doing ;)

if those statistics were different, i might call him world class.

So, thats what..

06/07 - 6 games 2 goals
07/08 - 6 games 0 goals
08/09 - 6 games 0 goals
09/10 - 8 games 2 goals
10/11 - 4 games 2 goals
11/12 - 4 games 2 goals
------------------------
34 games 8 goals


:notworldclassmeme.jpg:

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 20:45
fuk stats ibra scores tons of goals and does things very few if any can. he world class end of. browha u dont really think rooneys better than him do you

.h.
17 Nov 12, 20:49
I never said I thought Rooney was better than Ibrahimovic.

Rooney's better than Cassano.

I've never once argued Ibrahimovic isn't capable of doing things NO ONE ELSE is with the ball, but I think Rooney is a more refined product. Ibrahimovic is a bit more 'street football' to me, whereas Rooney is a more lethal player.

My comparisons involving Rooney mainly orientate around Cassano. And there, Rooney simply is a much better overall footballer. One might argue - as you did - that he's not as good technically (though I disagree, he just doesn't need to show it as often), but without dispute in terms of a professional footballer who delivers results, and good play, he's leaps and bounds ahead of anything Cassano can ever be.

Ffi201zi002tlis
17 Nov 12, 20:53
you did what i couldnt be fucked doing ;)

if those statistics were different, i might call him world class.

So, thats what..

06/07 - 6 games 2 goals
07/08 - 6 games 0 goals
08/09 - 6 games 0 goals
09/10 - 8 games 2 goals
10/11 - 4 games 2 goals
11/12 - 4 games 2 goals
------------------------
34 games 8 goals


:notworldclassmeme.jpg:
Actually he didn't play all those games, so it was :

06/07 - 6 games (2 against Bbilan, 2 against Bayern, 2 against Valencia) - 2 goals (all against Bbilan, 1 home and 1 away)
07/08 - 5 games (1 against Bbilan, 2 against Rube, 2 against Loserfool) - 0 goals :yao:
08/09 - 6 games (2 against Bbilan, 2 against Rube, 2 against Man Utd) - 0 goals :yao:
09/10 - 6 games (1 against Real, 4 against us, 1 against Arsenal) - 3 goals (1 against Real, 2 against Arsenal) (his best year ever :troll:)
10/11 - 7 games (2 against Real, 1 against us, 2 against Rube, 2 against Spurs) - 2 goals (1 against us, 1 against Rube)
11/12 - 7 games (2 against us, 1 against Rube, 2 against Arsenal, 2 against Farca) - 3 goals (2 against us, 1 against Arsenal)
------------------------
37 games 10 goals :yao:

I didn't count Coppa and La Copa del Rey.

Devious
17 Nov 12, 21:00
Ffi201zi002tlis :yao: welcome to the club :yao:

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 21:02
overall better in what way, he runs more and tracks back ye al give you that but thats it. people all ways talk about how ibra needs to prove him self in the prem(english people anyway) i would like to see rooneys stas if he played in italy a much less direct league. i would give him 10 to 15 goals a season and am been kind

Ffi201zi002tlis
17 Nov 12, 21:02
Ffi201zi002tlis :yao: welcome to the club :yao:
How can you type my username? :excitedeyes: Dont tell me you just copy-paste :fffuuu:

Devious
17 Nov 12, 21:04
Ok :yao: not just copy-paste :yao:

sanka
17 Nov 12, 21:09
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/101/781/Y0UJC.png

.h.
17 Nov 12, 21:09
overall better in what way, he runs more and tracks back ye al give you that but thats it. people all ways talk about how ibra needs to prove him self in the prem(english people anyway) i would like to see rooneys stas if he played in italy a much less direct league. i would give him 10 to 15 goals a season and am been kind

I couldnt care less about Ibrahimovic proving himself in England, to be honest. I was telling English people he was class back in 2006. He's just not WORLD class.

Rooney better than who are we talking about now? Zlatan or Cassano?

He's better than Cassano because he's about 50x more consistent, more of a threat, much more direct player. Cassano can be class when he wants to turn up, but that rarely has happened in his career to date. The fact that 5 goals in the Serie A is practically his all time best opening performance tells you enough already.

Rooney's United debut, he scored a fucking hat trick, aged 18?19?, in the Champions League.


Rooney's an absolutely class player. People discredit him a little bit because he doesn't display the same technical flair as, say, Ibrahimovic or Ronaldo, but he simply does not NEED to. It's like saying Messi is a lesser player than Ronaldo because he doesn't have the tricks that Ronaldo uses. He doesnt need them. He can get past people using his pace and turning speed alone. Rooney doesn't NEED to do anything to get past players, his sheer physical presence will do it.

Rooney is a world class player, certainly worthy of comparison to Ronaldo & Messi. He's one of the few players who could improve Barca or Real.


Cassano is a player who, mainly due to attitude and unrealized potential, will never be a tenth of what he could have been at Bari. He'll probably never bag 20 in a season, let alone 34, he'll probably never win a champions league, he'll probably never again be voted 'Player of the Year' or anything like that.

We're biased because we're Inter fans and he's an Inter fan and we love him. Go abroad, ask any neutral observer, they'll say 'Antonio who? Cassano? Isn't he the guy who fucked over a thousand women?'

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 21:40
i wa talking about zlatan. cassano can be inconsisten so can rooney, how many goals has he scored this season. but no one says shit when the the white pele dosent score. and where do you get this real want hih stuff from. a bs rumour in a english paper. if real wanted him there would have him, man u are they feedr club after all

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 21:40
Samuel Eto'o

2006/07: zero goals
2007/08: zero goals
2008/09: one goal against Real, one against Bayern in the famous 4:0, one against ManU
2009/10: one goal against Juventus ... but of course that doesn't count because we lost that game ... and one goal against Juventus when we won 2:0, one goal against Chelsea when we were already on the way to the quater final
2010/11: one goal against a Bayern team that was only a shadow of themselves in that year

Makes:
2006/07: 2 games - 0 goals (1 against Real, 1 Liverpool)
2007/08: 3 games - 0 goals (1 against Real, 2 ManU)
2008/09: 6 games - 3 goals (1 against Real, 2 Bayern, 2 Chelsea, 1 ManU)
2009/10: 10 games - 3 goals (1 against Milan, 2 Juventus, 4 Barcelona, 2 Chelsea, 1 Bayern)
2010/11: 6 games - 1 goal (2 against Milan, 2 Juventus, 2 Bayern)
-------------------------
Total: 27 games, 7 goals

His rate is worse than Ibras. But unlike Ibra he played 4 from 5 years in the best team of the world. And how often he was injured (2006/07, 2007/08 and 2008/09)?! And while Ibra scored in CL this year Eto'o plays in Europe League for a team I still can't spell right (don't forget that he is as old as Ibra).

Against who did he scored in the last two seasons? I can tell you about this year: In Europe against Young Boys Bern. And in the league against giants like Mordovia Saransk or FK Krasnodar. Biggest team he scored so far: Dinamo Moskva.

Such a shitty player! How can somebody say that he was world class?!?!

I love such "meaningful" statistics.

.h.
17 Nov 12, 21:45
i wa talking about zlatan. cassano can be inconsisten so can rooney, how many goals has he scored this season. but no one says shit when the the white pele dosent score. and where do you get this real want hih stuff from. a bs rumour in a english paper. if real wanted him there would have him, man u are they feedr club after all


United have sold, what, two players in their recent history to Real? Yeah, a real feeder. By that logic, Real are our feeder.

Rooney's not on great goalscoring form, that's true, but he is on world class creative form. Van Persie would have half the goals he has now if it wasn't for Rooney. He put away 34 goals last season, thats more than Cassano has scored since 2009.

Cal
17 Nov 12, 21:53
browha.

Make a list of current world class forwards in your opinion...

.h.
17 Nov 12, 21:57
browha.

Make a list of current world class forwards in your opinion...

Hmm, thats not so easy.

I would say definitely Ronaldo and Messi (of course).
Rooney is up there, because he has delivered quite consistently on top levels (and I'm not talking about fucking England)

On current FORM (last 2 years), Van Persie, Aguero and Falcao deserve to be up there. Falcao is the closest of those 3 for me.

If Ibrahimovic can deliver some top quality performances in the latter stages of the CL, then I will start considering him for it, but I do not think he will.

I've seen quite a lot of Suarez this season - if he can keep playing the way he has this year, he'll certainly be up there.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 21:59
rooneys a very direct player playing for a very direct one dimensional team in a very direct league his going to score goals. its worng to compare 2 diffrent playes in 2 diffrent leagues. yes rooney looks better on paper but cassano is a much better player. like i said i would like to see what rooney would do in here or spain especially here.

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:02
as I would, to be honest. I think his sheer physicality is something no one else would be able to handle.

As I posted above, when he DOES want to do those subtle touches to get past players, or dribble a player, he's more than capable.

Cassano is only a better player in the sense that he demonstrates his technical ability on a more regular basis. But as I stated, that is nothing to do with Rooney's lack, but rather, Cassano's lack of other talents. That's the ONLY way Cassano can beat a player, Rooney has the whole set in his repository, and he rarely needs to use his skill to beat a player, as his strength, pace, and touch more often than not compensate for it.

Cal
17 Nov 12, 22:09
If Ibrahimovic can deliver some top quality performances in the latter stages of the CL, then I will start considering him for it

ok, fair enough.

but..


On current FORM (last 2 years), Van Persie, Aguero and Falcao deserve to be up there. Falcao is the closest of those 3 for me.

I've seen quite a lot of Suarez this season - if he can keep playing the way he has this year, he'll certainly be up there.

So what have these four players accomplished in the latter stages of the champions league?


I have to disagree tbh. :)

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 22:12
On current FORM (last 2 years), Van Persie, Aguero and Falcao deserve to be up there. Falcao is the closest of those 3 for me.

Your argumentation pisses me really off. You bring up super statistics about Ibrahimovic being always terrible against big teams since ... 100 years ago. But when you were asked about your world class strikers it's only about the last two years. Before coming to Spain Falcao played only 4 games against so called big teams (2 x Arsenal, 2 x Chelsea) and scored one goal against Arsenal. Now, since he is in Spain, his statistic is better. He scored against Real and against Barcelona. But all of this games his team lost. He shinned against Chelsea. And that's it.

Ibrahimovic should deliver some top quality performances in the latter stages of the CL? Falcao never played there!

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 22:13
so your saying rooneys as technical as good cassano but dunt show it as much?. yes hes touch and technique might be better than the average english man. but it would look average in here especially spain. even the average italian will have a technique

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:16
Your argumentation pisses me really off. You bring up super statistics about Ibrahimovic being always terrible against big teams since ... 100 years ago. But when you were asked about your world class strikers it's only about the last two years. Before coming to Spain Falcao played only 4 games against so called big teams (2 x Arsenal, 2 x Chelsea) and scored one goal against Arsenal. Now, since he is in Spain, his statistic is better. He scored against Real and against Barcelona. But all of this games his team lost. He shinned against Chelsea. And that's it.

Ibrahimovic should deliver some top quality performances in the latter stages of the CL? Falcao never played there!



ok, fair enough.

but..



So what have these four players accomplished in the latter stages of the champions league?


I have to disagree tbh. :)


As I stated, they deserve to be up there. Van Persie hasn't played so extensively in the end stages of the CL in a decent team - Ibrahimovic has. Aguero, same story. Falcao, same story. Isnt this his first year even in the CL? Suarez, same story.

Ibrahimovic has played CLs year in year out for, what, the last decade? If not more?





See above.



so your saying rooneys as technical as good cassano but dunt show it as much?. yes hes touch and technique might be better than the average english man. but it would look average in here especially spain. even the average italian will have a technique


I'm saying Rooney, as basically every top class footballer, has world class technique. He just doesn't show it as often. Similarly, Messi doesn't use tricks, doesn't mean he CANT. He just doesnt NEED to. Rooney doesnt NEED to use the fancy/delicate touches to beat players, he just relies on his strength. He doesn't need to do poirettes and shit like Ronaldo to beat players, he just needs his strength and pace.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 22:30
so if there havet proved it yet they dont desrve to be there right?. messi dont do triks like ronaldo cos he ant got the skill set like ronaldo. just like rooney hasent got the fancy/delicate touches like cassano. to say you hate england praising strength and pace over pure technique, sounds pretty english to me

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 22:31
As I stated, they deserve to be up there. Van Persie hasn't played so extensively in the end stages of the CL in a decent team - Ibrahimovic has. Aguero, same story. Falcao, same story. Isnt this his first year even in the CL? Suarez, same story.

When? Inter from 2006 to 2009? You really think that team was so much better than Arsenal? Maybe Ibra did when he played in Barcelona.

RvP played from 2004 to 2012 in Arsenal. And always made it into the latter stages of the CL. But I can't remember really great performances of RvP (even when Arsenal was a top team).

And who doesn't remember the amazing CL performances of Aguero in the CL? With City this or last year (ok, City isn't really a great team). Or with Atletico against APOEL Nikosia?

And Falcao? He never won a title in a big league.

So what is your criteria for a world class striker?

Ffi201zi002tlis
17 Nov 12, 22:33
Samuel Eto'o

2006/07: zero goals
2007/08: zero goals
2008/09: one goal against Real, one against Bayern in the famous 4:0, one against ManU
2009/10: one goal against Juventus ... but of course that doesn't count because we lost that game ... and one goal against Juventus when we won 2:0, one goal against Chelsea when we were already on the way to the quater final
2010/11: one goal against a Bayern team that was only a shadow of themselves in that year

Makes:
2006/07: 2 games - 0 goals (1 against Real, 1 against Liverpool)
2007/08: 3 games - 0 goals (1 against Real, 2 against ManU)
2008/09: 6 games - 3 goals (1 against Real, 2 against Bayern, 2 against Chelsea, 1 against ManU)
2009/10: 10 games - 3 goals (1 against Milan, 2 Juventus, 4 Barcelona, 2 Chelsea, 1 Bayern)
2010/11: 6 games - 1 goal (2 against Milan, 2 Juventus, 2 Bayern)
-------------------------
Total: 27 games, 7 goals

His rate is worse than Ibras. But unlike Ibra he played 4 from 5 years in the best team of the world. And how often he was injured (2006/07, 2007/08 and 2008/09)?! And while Ibra scored in CL this year Eto'o plays in Europe League for a team I still can't spell right (don't forget that he is as old as Ibra).

Against who did he scored in the last two seasons? I can tell you about this year: In Europe against Young Boys Bern. And in the league against giants like Mordovia Saransk or FK Krasnodar. Biggest team he scored so far: Dinamo Moskva.

Such a shitty player! How can somebody say that he was world class?!?!

I love such "meaningful" statistics.
His rate against big teams is quite average, but still better than Ibra, 27/7 > 37/10 :oblivious:

and his best years was 2004-2006 (he even scored in CL final) which you didn't count (apart from 2008/09 and 2010/11), while Ibra best years was with us from 2006 until now (which we count). And you said "Eto'o played 4 from 5 years in the best team of the world", but hey, Farca wasn't 'best team of the world' from 2006-2008 (2006/07, 2007/08), they even lost La Liga title. So it means he just played 2 from those 5 years in the best team of the world. Not to mention he got serious knee injury in 2007.


And while Ibra scored in CL this year Eto'o plays in Europe League for a team I still can't spell right (don't forget that he is as old as Ibra).
:palm:


Against who did he scored in the last two seasons? I can tell you about this year: In Europe against Young Boys Bern. And in the league against giants like Mordovia Saransk or FK Krasnodar. Biggest team he scored so far: Dinamo Moskva.
:palm::palm:

defuq? What do you expect ? P$G have strong squad and already got CL spot before Ibra came, while Eto'o chose Anzhi (because of money) and his team just :yao: How can you blame Eto'o for not scoring against big teams in CL while his team didn't even play in CL? :yao::palm::trollol:

I don't count Liverpool last year as big team. :oblivious:

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:34
When? Inter from 2006 to 2009? You really think that team was so much better than Arsenal? Maybe Ibra did when he played in Barcelona.

RvP played from 2004 to 2012 in Arsenal. And always made it into the latter stages of the CL. But I can't remember really great performances of RvP (even when Arsenal was a top team).

And who doesn't remember the amazing CL performances of Aguero in the CL? With City this or last year (ok, City isn't really a great team). Or with Atletico against APOEL Nikosia?

And Falcao? He never won a title in a big league.

So what is your criteria for a world class striker?




I've stated that an infinite number of times on the last 3 pages. I'm getting very tired of repeating myself. My opinion is well documented. You're welcome to agree or disagree, but repeatedly asking me to requalify it is a bit pointless, I think we can agree on that.




so if there havet proved it yet they dont desrve to be there right?. messi dont do triks like ronaldo cos he ant got the skill set like ronaldo. just like rooney hasent got the fancy/delicate touches like cassano. to say you hate england praising strength and pace over pure technique, sounds pretty english to me

Are you kidding me? I've seen Messi do things with the ball Ronaldo can't dream of. He simply doesnt NEED to, because his pace and agility do the job 99% of the time. Messi can do everything Ronaldo can, he just rarely has to.

I've never ONCE praised strength and pace over pure technique, I've simply stated that Rooney doesn't NEED to use pure technique as he's a much more flexible player. If you can't understand that, lets just give up now.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 22:42
i rate messi way more than ronlado but ronlado can do more tricks. and rooney dosent use pure technique cos he dunt have it lol. very english men have if any tbh

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:46
Messi can, seriously, do every trick that Ronaldo can. I've seen him pull them all off before. He just doesn't NEED to. His touch, turn, and sprint works 99% of the time.

Generalizing that to all English players is one of the most stupid things you can do, tbh. It's like saying all Brazilians are flair attackers. As a national average, that might well be true, but as an absolute standard with which to judge every player, thats way off.
Watch some of this, you'll see exactly what I mean pretty quickly. When he needs it, he'll pull it off. Pretty consistently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIqDbiiwuc


And for Messi..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM-Llj8OX8Y

If you can dribble the way he can dribble, you have the strength, pace, and turning ability, you dont NEED tricks. There are plenty of times there where a stepover or two, or a piroette, or something else, would buy him something. But what buys him the most, ultimately, is using his turning ability to turn a player, and use his pace to get past him. Ronaldo, to beat 3 players, would have to on average do like 2 or 3 tricks. Messi can beat them all in a single turn and sprint. Using tricks would actually HINDER Messi's gameplay, it'd mean he'd have to slow down, bring himself to a halt, the other defender to a halt, and take them on. Why do that when you can just run past them, make them commit to intercepting one direction, and then quickly turn 90 degrees and beat him the other way?

Pajo
17 Nov 12, 22:51
Again, you guys need to agree to disagree.. It's pointless :)

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:52
Again, you guys need to agree to disagree.. It's pointless :)

As I've stated many times already I'd be happy to do :) But instead, the fanboys are like
'OMG WAT SOMEONE SED SOMFINK BAD ABOUT ZLATANZZZZ???? HE HAS HIS OWN TRADEMARK DONT U KNO????' and wont let it rest.

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 22:53
His rate against big teams is quite average, but still better than Ibra, 27/7 > 37/10 :oblivious:

7:27=0.26, 10:37=0.27 ... obvious.


and his best years was 2004-2006 (he even scored in CL final) which you didn't count (apart from 2008/09 and 2010/11), while Ibra best years was with us from 2006 until now (which we count). And you said "Eto'o played 4 from 5 years in the best team of the world", but hey, Farca wasn't 'best team of the world' from 2006-2008 (2006/07, 2007/08), they even lost La Liga title. So it means he just played 2 from those 5 years in the best team of the world. Not to mention he got serious knee injury in 2007.

I just took the same years than you.


defuq? What do you expect ? P$G have strong squad and already got CL spot before Ibra came, while Eto'o chose Anzhi (because of money) and his team just :yao: How can you blame Eto'o for not scoring against big teams in CL while his team didn't even play in CL? :yao::palm::trollol:

When you say I forget to count some years we should count the last two years too. Why not? It was Eto'os choice to go to Russia and play in a league nobody cares. Since when does a world class striker play there?

and defuq. I thought it's clear that I don't give a damn about such statistics and consider Eto'o as a world class striker. :palm:


I've stated that an infinite number of times on the last 3 pages. I'm getting very tired of repeating myself. My opinion is well documented. You're welcome to agree or disagree, but repeatedly asking me to requalify it is a bit pointless, I think we can agree on that.

Yeah, but for me it looks like your change your criteria for a world class striker more than other people their underwear.

.h.
17 Nov 12, 22:56
7:27=0.26, 10:37=0.27 ... oblivious.



I just took the same years than you.



When you say I forget to count some years we should count the last two years too. Why not? It was Eto'os choice to go to Russia and play in a league nobody cares.

and defuq. I thought it's clear that I don't give a damn about such statistics and consider Eto'o as a world class striker. :palm:



Yeah, but for me it looks like your change your criteria for a world class striker more than other people their underwear.


And from where I'm sat, it's been the exact same definition for the last 3 months we've had this debate. The players capable of competing on the top level of players. Ibrahimovic failed when he had his chance to do that. RVP, Falcao, Rooney, the rest mentioned, either haven't had the chance/are now only getting the chance really, or succeeded.


Also, the comment on RVP is retarded. It's like saying 'but Longo played in Inter in 2013! He's clearly not world class because he wasn't world class then!'.. Yes, he was about 22? when he first signed for Arsenal, and has come an awful long way since then. He's a bit of a late bloomer, I'll state that freely.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 22:59
o you pulled out the you tube clips even u would look good on you tube(maby). how am i generaliseing name a english player in the last 30 years with technique even as good as cassanos. and if you give a ball to messi and ronaldo in your back garden ronaldo will have more tricks

Pajo
17 Nov 12, 23:03
Technique and doing tricks doesn't mean that should be connected ffs.

Technique is NOT dribbling. Two totally different things. Well, dribbling is technique, kind of.. But it doesn't mean that if you can't dribble your technique is poor.

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 23:05
And from where I'm sat, it's been the exact same definition for the last 3 months we've had this debate. The players capable of competing on the top level of players. Ibrahimovic failed when he had his chance to do that. RVP, Falcao, Rooney, the rest mentioned, either haven't had the chance/are now only getting the chance really, or succeeded.


Also, the comment on RVP is retarded. It's like saying 'but Longo played in Inter in 2013! He's clearly not world class because he wasn't world class then!'.. Yes, he was about 22? when he first signed for Arsenal, and has come an awful long way since then. He's a bit of a late bloomer, I'll state that freely.

Retarded is when someone says a player isn't world class because he failed to deliver on the highest level (what he did in my eyes) but other players are world class because they just haven't had the chance yet to deliver on the highest level (what is not true in every case you mentioned).

I have no problem with calling all the players you mentiond world class. But when you bring in names like RvP, Falcao, Rooney etc. you can't say that Ibrahimovic isn't world class.

.h.
17 Nov 12, 23:07
o you pulled out the you tube clips even u would look good on you tube(maby). how am i generaliseing name a english player in the last 30 years with technique even as good as cassanos. and if you give a ball to messi and ronaldo in your back garden ronaldo will have more tricks

Rooney, for one... :palm:

I'm giving up now. This is a waste of my time. I feel like I'm watching a dog chase its own tail....



This is just going to be horribly circular.

---------- Post added at 00:07 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------


Retarded is when someone says a player isn't world class because he failed to deliver on the highest level (what he did in my eyes) but other players are world class because they just haven't had the chance yet to deliver on the highest level (what is not true in every case you mentioned).

I have no problem with calling all the players you mentiond world class. But when you bring in names like RvP, Falcao, Rooney etc. you can't say that Ibrahimovic isn't world class.

You'll notice I said those players were on the bracket just below world class, except Rooney who HAS delivered on the top tier. Falcao, RVP, Aguero, etc, need to show they can deliver before I will put them on that same bracket, but they're certainly the good contenders.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 23:10
who said anything about technique and tricks been the same thing?. i dont rate ronaldo his pure technique not all that great. but he can do loads off tricks

---------- Post added at 01:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 ----------

lool ye but rooney hasent got great technique tho if he was brazilian ppl would be saying how average his technique is. need some english unbiased ppl to back me up ffs

Pajo
17 Nov 12, 23:10
Rooney's shooting technique and the ability to keep the ball is IMMENSE. The same i was saying above. He is not good dribbler, but doesn't mean his technique is poor.

wicked wizard
17 Nov 12, 23:16
rooneys technique is not poor its ok his first touch is decent. but saying his technique is as good as cassanos one the technical gifted players ave seen in my life is ridiculous

Bergpavian
17 Nov 12, 23:22
You'll notice I said those players were on the bracket just below world class, except Rooney who HAS delivered on the top tier. Falcao, RVP, Aguero, etc, need to show they can deliver before I will put them on that same bracket, but they're certainly the good contenders.

Well, Rooney is a world class striker and scores against big teams regular. So we have three world class strikers in the world and that's it? Poor, boring football world!

And RvP: He had enough chances to shine against big teams in CL with Arsenal. Arsenal always made it into the round of the last 16 when he played there.

.h.
17 Nov 12, 23:25
Well, Rooney is a world class striker and scores against big teams regular. So we have three world class strikers in the world and that's it? Poor, boring football world!

And RvP: He had enough chances to shine against big teams in CL with Arsenal. Arsenal always made it into the round of the last 16 when he played there.


Exactly correct.

And that's pretty much been true in history, too. Ronaldo, Shevchenko, Raul... after them, Torres (for a while, its indisputable), Eto'o, Henry...

The numbers are very limited. How can 'world class' mean 6 different strikers? That implies like 60 players are world class? That's ridiculous.

World class for me encompasses roughly the best 11-25 players in the world.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 00:18
thats ridiculous, the players u claim are world class are just the most hyped and flavour of the month

I4E
18 Nov 12, 00:27
Van Persie, Falcao, Aguero > Ibrahimovic....

But if Ibrahimovic could perform in later stages of CL, he may be considered along side them...

Yet Van Persie, Falcao, Aguero haven't seen latter stage CL let alone perform there ?!

:chan: :browha logic:

:palm:

.h.
18 Nov 12, 00:34
thats ridiculous, the players u claim are world class are just the most hyped and flavour of the month

You're telling me Shevchenko at AC wasnt world class, Ronaldo at Real, Raul at Real, Torres at Liverpool for his first ~2 years, Eto'o, or Henry at Arsenal?

Fine, I give up. Waste of my breath. Waste of my electricity bill arguing with you if you dont think they were world class.

---------- Post added at 01:34 ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 ----------


Van Persie, Falcao, Aguero > Ibrahimovic....

But if Ibrahimovic could perform in later stages of CL, he may be considered along side them...

Yet Van Persie, Falcao, Aguero haven't seen latter stage CL let alone perform there ?!

:chan: :browha logic:

:palm:


Ibrahimovic has been there and failed. Falcao certainly, Aguero possibly, are comparable to Ibrahimovic, but haven't yet FAILED. Falcao almost certainly will deliver top class performances at top clubs for years to come. Aguero, as well.

Van Persie is a bit older, but he's an exception. He's a VERY late bloomer.


Ibrahimovic has been in some very good teams (Barca, for one) and failed to perform in the latter stages in the Champions League. Falcao and Aguero are young enough still to go for a great team and deliver. I don't know whether that will be at City or Real for Aguero, and it's probably Chelsea for Falcao, but I'm personally convinced they will deliver top class performances.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 00:35
i want talking about them players the ones u mentioned earlier. all the players u could mentionen over the past ten years u mentioned torres u deffo rate players by hype

Doffy
18 Nov 12, 00:36
everyone has an other view on the term... to me only the best of the best of the best Ever are worthy to be called worldclass. for example, the best strikers ever imo are romario and fat ronaldo. they truly deserve to be called worldclass. if you put guys like ibra and rooney in the same ranking you would do the former ones kind of wrong. imo ofcourse

skeet
18 Nov 12, 00:36
hey guys, remember this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAgt0McGg50

.h.
18 Nov 12, 00:39
i want talking about them players the ones u mentioned earlier. all the players u could mentionen over the past ten years u mentioned torres u deffo rate players by hype

Er, no, I dont.

He finished his Liverpool career with 65 goals in 102 games. In a pretty shitty side. That's with his last season where he was a flop with 9 in 23. His first 2.5, 3 seasons at Chelsea he was almost definitely top 3 worldwide as a striker.

Ignoring his last season - which I stated above - he's 56 in 79 for Liverpool in the league. Overall, 73 in 106.


Did you ever watch Torres play at Liverpool during that time? I saw most of his games - living in a house with a bunch of Liverpool fans will do that for you. Utterly world class.


The only reason an idiot would argue he wasn't world class, is because they've seen a few of his games at Chelsea and assumed he was like that his entire career. Which is utter fail.


But of course, if a player scores 30+ goals in the Premiership, that doesn't matter to you. Similar to how Rooney is a worse player than Cassano, despite scoring 34 goals twice in a season, and Cassano's never even hit 20!

I4E
18 Nov 12, 00:42
Maradona FAILED to deliver/perform in Champions Cup... But lets stick to :Browha Logic: and class him as just a very good player because he failed to perform there..

Listen, I don't give a fuck about your opinion of Ibra but atleast use some logical substance in your defense of your stance.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 00:45
Maradona FAILED to deliver/perform in Champions Cup... But lets stick to :Browha Logic: and class him as just a very good player because he failed to perform there..

Listen, I don't give a fuck about your opinion of Ibra but atleast use some logical substance in your defense of your stance.

Yeah, except Maradona did propel Napoli to two? scudetto, he DID win a world cup - almost single handedly (ba-dum), a FIFA golden ball, world player of the year several times, and a whole host of other awards Ibrahimovic will never even get close to.

Ibrahimovic did make a big difference to our scudetti, especially the first one under Mourinho, but its not like we were in Napoli's situation when Maradona joined them... That's just for starters...

I thought you had more sense than to talk complete bullshit. I forget sometimes that, whilst 95% of your posts are quite reasonable, you are ultimately on my ignore list for a reason :)

TheKingOfRome
18 Nov 12, 00:45
Rooney's shooting technique and the ability to keep the ball is IMMENSE. The same i was saying above. He is not good dribbler, but doesn't mean his technique is poor.

Rooney??? Shot Technique? hahaha you trolling??

I4E
18 Nov 12, 00:47
Yeah, except Maradona did propel Napoli to two? scudetto, he DID win a world cup - almost single handedly (ba-dum), a FIFA golden ball, world player of the year several times, and a whole host of other awards Ibrahimovic will never even get close to.

Ibrahimovic did make a big difference to our scudetti, especially the first one under Mourinho, but its not like we were in Napoli's situation when Maradona joined them... That's just for starters...

I thought you had more sense than to talk complete bullshit. I forget sometimes that, whilst 95% of your posts are quite reasonable, you are ultimately on my ignore list for a reason :)

But Maradona FAILED at Barcelona !

Just as you claimed that Ibra FAILED at Barca and therefore he's not WC ?!

If I'm on this cunts ignore list, why do I see his pathetic posts ?

.h.
18 Nov 12, 00:48
Ibrahimovic didnt carry a team like Maradona did at Napoli. I also wouldnt say Maradona failed at Barca - 38 in 58 is hardly failure...


Honestly, I'm tired of this. Half of the people I'm arguing against are retards who make up completely ridiculous examples to 'prove me wrong', and the other half have accepted that there's a difference of opinions which is perfectly valid, and have ended the discussion.


Also, where do we draw the line?

Pandev signs for a team in Hong Kong and scores 3 hat tricks every game, does that make him world class?

Clearly the LEVEL of the league has to be taken into account at some point, and PSG (obviously, as indeed we see from last year) would be competitive for the title - if not necessarily winning it - without Ibrahimovic. So, whilst he is an enjoyable luxury there, he's not carrying that team to success necessarily.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 00:52
so a player is only good if he preforms in the cl. when man u last time reached the last finle look at the teams they played. is that provivg yor self against the very best? cl over rated. preforming in your league is much more important. and torres was class but not as good as u make out

I4E
18 Nov 12, 00:53
Ibrahimovic didnt carry a team like Maradona did at Napoli. I also wouldnt say Maradona failed at Barca - 38 in 58 is hardly failure...

Not sure what this 38 in 58 is. but whatever, it must be right yeah ?

.h.
18 Nov 12, 00:54
so a player is only good if he preforms in the cl. when man u last time reached the last finle look at the teams they played. is that provivg yor self against the very best? cl over rated. preforming in your league is much more important. and torres was class but not as good as u make out

If performing in your league is the measure you choose to apply, then how can you deny Torres was world class? PFA player of the year two years running, Ballon d'Or third place 2008, FIFA XI 2 years in a row... 65 in 102 in England..

Name me one world class striker in England in the last 15-20 years, I bet Torres has at least a comparable strike rate...



Not sure what this 38 in 58 is. but whatever, it must be right yeah ?

Quite clearly the number of goals he scored in the number of matches he played..

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 01:03
yes torres was class for wat like 2 seasons. u make out like he was the one of the best cf in our life time

I4E
18 Nov 12, 01:17
Quite clearly the number of goals he scored in the number of matches he played..

Looked like some kind of playstation stat :lol:

Look, your not doing yourself any favors by trying to sell your opinion as fact.

You make remarks like 'Torres' is world class ?! And judge players class on CL performances then place Van Persie, Falcao etc above Ibra despite them never performing in CL ...

Your whole debate is benchmarking other players that you believe are WC, yet you don't realize that Ibra meets and even exceeds the criteria your using as justification !!!

Pharaoh
18 Nov 12, 04:10
Oh my god this post. If I was on my computer I'd give you that Rock clapping gif.


Brilliantly broke down browha's argument.


(No offense to brow) but he took you to school =P

monster09
18 Nov 12, 05:31
But of course, if a player scores 30+ goals in the Premiership, that doesn't matter to you. Similar to how Rooney is a worse player than Cassano, despite scoring 34 goals twice in a season, and Cassano's never even hit 20!

But but he scored goals in the third rated league. SERIE A IS THE BOSS LEAGUE, ROONEY Wont even score 10 goals in Serie A even though when Di Natale, Palacio can score nearly 20 goals playing for average/shit teams.

Some of the posts about Rooney are just :palm:

Still Ibra is world class but it's such a vague term with no proper defn, so each to their own. For me he is one of the best players of last decade and world class without any doubt.

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------


rooneys technique is not poor its ok his first touch is decent. but saying his technique is as good as cassanos one the technical gifted players ave seen in my life is ridiculous

Just because player is technically gifted doesn't mean he is better than other player. There are many other attributes that makes player better.

Quaresma had technical ability, flair but not half the player everyone thought he will be. You get many technically gifted players in Spain and Brazil but none of them comes close to Drogba (who is very good technically but there are players with better technique).

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 06:14
for a start di natale is fuking class you must not watch much seria a if you dont know that. and no way at all inferior to over rated english men like rooney. and its not the quality of the league am talking about, am talking about the style. the prem is just run and gun suits rooney. in italy its slower and much more tactical, ye rooney getting 10 goals is me been kind

monster09
18 Nov 12, 06:24
Just few stats from 2006-07. So much for hardest league to score. Di Natale must be better than Messi looking at his goal scoring record (going by how many here thinks Scoring a goal in Serie A is some sort of achievement)

2006-07
Lucarelli - 20 goals
Bianchi (flop at City) - 18 goals
both playing for shit teams.

2007-08
Borriello :lol: - 19 goals
Amuari :lol: - 15 goals


2008-09
Di Vaio (must be better than Rooney for sure) - 24 goals


2009-10
Di Natale - 29 goals

2010-11
Di Natale - 28 goals
Matri :lol: - 20 goals
Di Vaio - 19 goals

2011-12
Di Natale - 23 goals
Palaco - 19 goals

If you check the league top scorer every season, it's almost always over 25 goals in Serie A in the last 6-7 years.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 06:39
whats that ment to mean shit players fill the boots in england 2. i remmber once when andy johnson was the top scorrer lol. the deffending in the prems a joke tbh, if you ask most players who played around the world they will tell u seria a hardest league to score in

Pimpin
18 Nov 12, 06:46
Just few stats from 2006-07. So much for hardest league to score. Di Natale must be better than Messi looking at his goal scoring record (going by how many here thinks Scoring a goal in Serie A is some sort of achievement)

2006-07
Lucarelli - 20 goals
Bianchi (flop at City) - 18 goals
both playing for shit teams.

2007-08
Borriello :lol: - 19 goals
Amuari :lol: - 15 goals


2008-09
Di Vaio (must be better than Rooney for sure) - 24 goals


2009-10
Di Natale - 29 goals

2010-11
Di Natale - 28 goals
Matri :lol: - 20 goals
Di Vaio - 19 goals

2011-12
Di Natale - 23 goals
Palaco - 19 goals

If you check the league top scorer every season, it's almost always over 25 goals in Serie A in the last 6-7 years.

does the name Bergkamp ring a bell to you?

monster09
18 Nov 12, 06:50
whats that ment to mean shit players fill the boots in england 2. i remmber once when andy johnson was the top scorrer lol. the deffending in the prems a joke tbh, if you ask most players who played around the world they will tell u seria a hardest league to score in


WAS.

So players like Matri, Di Vaio, Amuari, Borriello can score 15 goals plus but Rooney can't :palm:

And people here think EPL fan bois are worst when Serie A fan bois think scoring in Serie A is so tough even when half decent player has scored 15 plus goals.

Yeah we got it. Rooney can't do shit in any league.
CL is overrated.
Di Maria >>>>>>>> Ronaldo
Cassano is 10 times the player Rooney is.
Di Natale is fucking class (which everyone knows) must be one of the best ever for scoring nearly 30 goals in toughest league in the world.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------


does the name Bergkamp ring a bell to you?

:confused: Err what? Not sure why you brought his name. Anyways Bergkamp was class player who was much more than just scoring goals.

For a record his best ever goal scoring season was 16 and he scored more than 10 goals only 4 times in 12 years.

I4E
18 Nov 12, 06:56
does the name Bergkamp ring a bell to you?

Bergkamp was a pansy. Serie A defenders ate him for breakfast. Went to England and became a legend :awyeah:

monster09
18 Nov 12, 07:00
Bergkamp was a pansy. Serie A defenders ate him for breakfast. Went to England and became a legend :awyeah:

17 years ago when Serie A was at its best.

Applying same logic, Ibra Serie A legend scored 25 league goals in 2008-09 but only scored 16 goals for Barca in 2009-10. La Liga defense >>>> Serie A.

sanka
18 Nov 12, 07:19
These whole arguments are mindfuck tbh.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 07:50
i wish rooney would go to udine. and see if he would score like Di Natale

I4E
18 Nov 12, 08:37
17 years ago when Serie A was at its best.

Applying same logic, Ibra Serie A legend scored 25 league goals in 2008-09 but only scored 16 goals for Barca in 2009-10. La Liga defense >>>> Serie A.

Not really a good comparison there Monster.

Fact is Bergkamp was smashed in Serie A plain and simple. Ibrahimovic required Barca to accommodate him (if you know what I'm saying).

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 08:42
One of those internet moments when you can't believe your own eyes it went for so long.

*Ibrahimović is a world class player.

*Using his Barcelona perfomances against him is pretty flawed.

*He is still a very stupid human beign but you can't deny his class. Imagine having him in this Inter team.:pokerface: Exactly.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 08:45
Looked like some kind of playstation stat :lol:

Look, your not doing yourself any favors by trying to sell your opinion as fact.

You make remarks like 'Torres' is world class ?! And judge players class on CL performances then place Van Persie, Falcao etc above Ibra despite them never performing in CL ...

Your whole debate is benchmarking other players that you believe are WC, yet you don't realize that Ibra meets and even exceeds the criteria your using as justification !!!


I never actually said I placed Falcao and Van Persie above Ibrahimovic. I just stated that, on current form, I think they could prove to be so. I've stated repeatedly the need to prove yourself consistently on a top stage - which Ibrahimovic has never done. Falcao has single handedly carried two clubs to Europa League trophies, and this season destroyed Chelsea. He's clearly on the way up, he needs more time to prove it. Van Persie is a very late bloomer, and is getting closer now to proving himself - admittedly something he should have done YEARS ago, if not for Arsenal - but he's certainly absolutely class in United.



Torres is nowhere near world class now. But between 2005/06/07/08, he CLEARLY was. He single handedly carried Liverpool to another CL final, despite being one of the worst teams at the time - worse than Mourinho's Porto, etc, and he carried them to 2nd place in the Premiership. Torres in that period was one of the best players in the world.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------


But but he scored goals in the third rated league. SERIE A IS THE BOSS LEAGUE, ROONEY Wont even score 10 goals in Serie A even though when Di Natale, Palacio can score nearly 20 goals playing for average/shit teams.

Some of the posts about Rooney are just :palm:

Still Ibra is world class but it's such a vague term with no proper defn, so each to their own. For me he is one of the best players of last decade and world class without any doubt.

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------



Just because player is technically gifted doesn't mean he is better than other player. There are many other attributes that makes player better.

Quaresma had technical ability, flair but not half the player everyone thought he will be. You get many technically gifted players in Spain and Brazil but none of them comes close to Drogba (who is very good technically but there are players with better technique).


Ya, Serie A defenses are so hardz¬!!"!!!! thats where theres, what, 3 REALLY good defenders in Serie A at the moment, and as you point out, people like Amauri can score 20 goals.

Sorry, but its BS. We might think one league is more technical than another, or vice versa, but to argue that somehow Serie A is teh bestdefenz0rz!! and then realize Bianchi, Amauri, other such players have scored bag loads is laughable.

And yes, NO ONE BROUGHT UP DI NATALE. No one here is arguing against him, so please, it was a pointless reference Wicked.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 08:47
Exactly correct.

And that's pretty much been true in history, too. Ronaldo, Shevchenko, Raul... after them, Torres (for a while, its indisputable), Eto'o, Henry...

The numbers are very limited. How can 'world class' mean 6 different strikers? That implies like 60 players are world class? That's ridiculous.

World class for me encompasses roughly the best 11-25 players in the world.

Villa, Drogba, Ibra were/are not world class? Lol, you are fucking cluless.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 08:49
Villa, Drogba, Ibra were/are not world class? Lol, you are fucking cluless.

I never said my list was exhaustive. Ibra in 2001-2008, which is the time period I've covered above, he doesn't even deserve to be mentioned there. Hitting mediocre amounts of goals at clubs like Ajax and Juventus. Villa, yes, he's been class for a very long time, no dispute there.
Drogba, hmmm. I'd say he was world class towards the middle of his Chelsea career, but not at the start. Very good, yes, world class? Not given the ocmpany

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 08:52
Yeah, except Maradona did propel Napoli to two? scudetto, he DID win a world cup - almost single handedly (ba-dum), a FIFA golden ball, world player of the year several times, and a whole host of other awards Ibrahimovic will never even get close to.

Ibrahimovic did make a big difference to our scudetti, especially the first one under Mourinho, but its not like we were in Napoli's situation when Maradona joined them... That's just for starters...

I thought you had more sense than to talk complete bullshit. I forget sometimes that, whilst 95% of your posts are quite reasonable, you are ultimately on my ignore list for a reason :)

Remove Ibrahimović from those scudetto winning teams of ours and you get completely toothless teams in terms of offense. What Ibrahimović did when playing for Inter is a very definition of carrying the team on your back.

Yes, he was missing for a while because he was injured in the 2. season but luckily we had Balotelli to carry us in those times.:foreveralone:

I4E
18 Nov 12, 08:52
You took the words out of my mouth Wall...


Exactly correct.

And that's pretty much been true in history, too. Ronaldo, Shevchenko, Raul... after them, Torres (for a while, its indisputable), Eto'o, Henry...

The numbers are very limited. How can 'world class' mean 6 different strikers? That implies like 60 players are world class? That's ridiculous.

World class for me encompasses roughly the best 11-25 players in the world.

C'mon Browha, just leave it now.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 08:55
So, we are questioning Drogba now? Who is next?

( btw, Did anyone bring ''Messi isn't world class because he hasn't proven he is capable of scoring against Stoke and Catania yet? This thread is severely lacking that if not. I'm looking at you browha)

I4E
18 Nov 12, 08:56
.....I've stated repeatedly the need to prove yourself consistently on a top stage - which Ibrahimovic has never done...

Well..... This is just :palm:

sanka
18 Nov 12, 08:57
Not just leave it.Fuck it please.

It's gettin annoyin this debate.

wicked wizard
18 Nov 12, 08:58
u can think of 3 really good defenders in italy thats more that i can think of in england tbh. am not a idot seria a is not what it was i know but its not as week as some people make out. and imo still is the hardest league to score in. especially for players like rooney whos main strengths are pace and power

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:00
So we learnt today that even Drogba wasn't consistent enough in his Chelsea days to be considered world class.

Mind blown. It's time to give up and leave this thread.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:05
So, we are questioning Drogba now? Who is next?

( btw, Did anyone bring ''Messi isn't world class because he hasn't proven he is capable of scoring against Stoke and Catania yet? This thread is severely lacking that if not. I'm looking at you browha)

When did I EVER qualify scoring against some mediocre side the definition as being world class? If that was, then Ibrahimovic would be the most world class player in history.


I said Drogba was world class for 2-3 years in the middle of his Chelsea career. He was very good when he first signed for Chelsea, and got refined into a far more deadly/lethal product, but to put him above, as you point out, someone like Villa - who scored twice as many goals as Drogba just for a laugh, is pretty laughable.



Remove Ibrahimović from those scudetto winning teams of ours and you get completely toothless teams in terms of offense. What Ibrahimović did when playing for Inter is a very definition of carrying the team on your back.

Yes, he was missing for a while because he was injured in the 2. season but luckily we had Balotelli to carry us in those times.:foreveralone:

You probably don't remember, then, how Cruz was actually our top goalscorer in 2005-2006, nearly scored more than Ibra in 2006-2007 (but playing practically half as many games), and scored 3 less than him in 2007-2008...



You took the words out of my mouth Wall...



C'mon Browha, just leave it now.


That's my definition of world class. If world class encompasses like 60-100 players, that's fucking retarded. For me, no more than somewhere between 10-25 players should be world class at any one given time.

World class players should be very very close to the best players in history in their position. Of course I don't expect all 'world class strikers' to compete with Pele (for example), but just mentioning them shouldn't evoke a laugh.

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------


u can think of 3 really good defenders in italy thats more that i can think of in england tbh. am not a idot seria a is not what it was i know but its not as week as some people make out. and imo still is the hardest league to score in. especially for players like rooney whos main strengths are pace and power

so far this season

324 goals scored in Serie A

299 scored in the Premiership

236 scored in La Liga

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30406165.jpg

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:13
When did I EVER qualify scoring against some mediocre side the definition as being world class? If that was, then Ibrahimovic would be the most world class player in history.

Yeah, because scoring against Milan, Real Madrid, Roma, Arsenal, Spain, Italy, England etc is so fucking mediocre.

Never mind my little stab at you, it just felt appropriate to pin that on you.



I said Drogba was world class for 2-3 years in the middle of his Chelsea career.

I'm lost for words. Just lol.



You probably don't remember, then, how Cruz was actually our top goalscorer in 2005-2006, nearly scored more than Ibra in 2006-2007 (but playing practically half as many games), and scored 3 less than him in 2007-2008...

I probably don't remember? Just another lol.

One must wonder what does Cruz have to do with Ibrahimović in this very discussion. Especially bringing in the season in which Zlatan wasn't even here is....I don't know what to say really.

You do remember Crespo scoring more goals than ZI in 06-07 right, since you are so smart? Even someone like myself with a poor knowledge of the recent Inter history is aware of this fact.

But it still doesn't mean Crespo=Ibra in terms of impact. Ibrahimović was pretty much a sole creative force in that Inter team. When he wasn't used in that role he showed what he was capable of scoring wise.(Barcelona/Milan/PSG)

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:18
Look. I've never said Zlatan wasn't GOOD. He's very good. I just don't think he's in the TOP TIER of players.

The top tier, who whilst occupying that creative role you're so freely banging on about, would have scored 25-30 goals in the season ANYWAY, and assisting all their team mates. Ronaldo did it at United, and is doing it at Barcelona (for example). Villa was practically the only reason Valencia weren't completely fucked...


Again:

Zlatan is VERY VERY Good. I just invoke a very harsh definition of world class, and under that definition, he's not there.

I don't know how many more times I can repeat this opinion. I feel like there are mules in this world who would have understood this faster than some of the moron fanboys on here.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:22
You did a splendid job in explaning your opinion so it must be us, the stupid mules.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:22
You did a splendid job in explaning your opinion so it must be us, the stupid mules.

I'm fairly certain of that too ;)

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:28
The top tier, who whilst occupying that creative role you're so freely banging on about, would have scored 25-30 goals in the season ANYWAY, and assisting all their team mates. Ronaldo did it at United, and is doing it at Barcelona (for example). Villa was practically the only reason Valencia weren't completely fucked...



You meant RM right?:)

Look, I don't view you as a walking Alzheimer's victim but you do realize that you have advocated for Rooney being wordl class in this very thread? You do realize that Tevez was also playing for United in Ronaldo's days there?

Which world class attacking player(by your own hilarious standars) was playing with Ibrahimović in Inter?

sanka
18 Nov 12, 09:31
Please rename the thread to 'browha against all'.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:34
You meant RM right?:)

Look, I don't view you as a walking Alzheimer's victim but you do realize that you have advocated for Rooney being wordl class in this very thread? You do realize that Tevez was also playing for United in Ronaldo's days there?

Which world class attacking player(by your own hilarious standars) was playing with Ibrahimović in Inter?

I do advocate Rooney being top class. He's scored in Champions League finals, he's carried United last season, he's regularly scored a large amount of goals in the Premiership.

Tevez wasn't world class when Ronaldo was there, he was often dropped and rotated - that's why United didn't sign him out right.


Inter? World class strikers? Honestly, I would say after Ronaldo the closest we had to truly world class was Adriano for those 18 months - 24 months before his father died. He was completely unplayable then.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:37
So, Ibrahimović had no world class teamates while Ronaldo had Rooney and Tevez(who also wasn't world class according to you lol, but stll)

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:38
Tevez at United? For one, a 'world class player' shouldnt spend half of his time on the bench. He, again, was very very good, but not world class at that time. Moving to City, his first two seasons were indisputably world class, though.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:42
Let's not focus on your heavily flawed view on world class players now(including Tevez).

He had Rooney right? Which players at Inter were as good as Rooney when Ibra was here?

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:44
Yes, he had Rooney. None were as good as Rooney, that is correct.

by extension of your argument, Messi isn't world class, because he plays with Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Sanchez, yadda-yadda.

You can only be world class in a mediocre team? :)

I4E
18 Nov 12, 09:45
Wes Brown = World Class

He's got 2 CL medals and a mountain of EPL medals

Wayne Rooney, Ibrahimovic eat your hearts out.....

:work:

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:46
Now you're just being facetious.

dynasty27
18 Nov 12, 09:51
Zlatan has won multiple national titles with different teams, mostly more or less single-handedly. That alone qualifies him for proving consistently on top level basis. His "failure" at Barca can only be reduced to the two games vs Mourinho's fuori-classe Inter, when Messi and others choked as well.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 09:52
Yes, he had Rooney. None were as good as Rooney, that is correct.

by extension of your argument, Messi isn't world class, because he plays with Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Sanchez, yadda-yadda.

You can only be world class in a mediocre team? :)

No, it's just easier to rack up numbers while playing on a stacked team.

Ronaldo's numbers were you argument for him being class in terms of all round game at United so I pointed out that it's obviously a flawed argument when comparing him with Ibra at Inter.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 09:56
No, it's just easier to rack up numbers while playing on a stacked team.

Ronaldo's numbers were you argument for him being class in terms of all round game at United so I pointed out that it's obviously a flawed argument when comparing him with Ibra at Inter.


I'll admit that Ronaldo had it better at United, than Inter, but clearly his talent has translated to carrying United - and at that, not a great United midfield, it was literally carried by Ronaldo - to Premiership titles and a Champions League title. He's now doing it at Real as well.

Ibrahimovic carried us in the league - when the league only had, what, two other good teams? Arguably? Roma and Milan? He never did anything worthwhile for us in the Champions League - so much so we could have been better off playing notIbrahimovic and might have been more dangerous.

I dont expect him to carry us to a champions league title, but I do expect him to turn up for most of the biggest games.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 10:04
When did Ibrahimović really choke and cost us not going through other than Liverpool home in 07-08?

I don't really expect you to put you hater glasses away and be objective though.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 10:05
United, the season after too?...

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 10:18
United, the season after too?...

We were completely destroyed at home and he actually played pretty good away but United was easily better.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 10:21
We drew 0-0 at home, and I wouldn't say we were completely destroyed. That was Santon's debut, and we had to play Rivas-Chivu. The game was all to play for in the away leg, and I remember both Adri and Ibra had chances where they might have been able to score, but aside from the one shot, Ibrahimovic did his Casper impersonation for the rest of the match.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 10:23
You memory fails you here becuase we were heavily out played at GM in the first leg.

We were a bit better at OT(thanks to Ibrahimović in big part) but nowhere good enough for that United team.

.h.
18 Nov 12, 10:32
who cares if we were outplayed? We were still 0-0... It was all there to play for. You know how aggregate works, right? It doesnt count total possession time, or anything like that. It counts goals.

The Wall
18 Nov 12, 11:17
who cares if we were outplayed? We were still 0-0... It was all there to play for. You know how aggregate works, right? It doesnt count total possession time, or anything like that. It counts goals.

Most of the time in this sport it matters if you are outplayed by an elite team because you can't do much in such conditions. Simple logic good sir. :)

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

Just noticed the Torres part in this discussion, LOOOOOOL.

That guy had exactly ONE(1) great season in his life.

World class=decided on yearly basis. Adebayor was world class for a season according to that logic(and after that he somehow wasn't).

:challenge:

Big Willy
18 Nov 12, 14:05
Lol at Ibrahimovic not world class. Browha always has to take the opposite view...

Fitzy
19 Nov 12, 00:50
Zlatan has won multiple national titles with different teams, mostly more or less single-handedly. That alone qualifies him for proving consistently on top level basis. His "failure" at Barca can only be reduced to the two games vs Mourinho's fuori-classe Inter, when Messi and others choked as well.Agree 100%. The inclusion of the word 'fuoriclasse' makes the post fuoriclasse imo.

snake
19 Nov 12, 02:18
Hate that word almost as much as I hate Lukas Rombo.

aditiya
19 Nov 12, 11:46
When did Ibrahimović really choke and cost us not going through other than Liverpool home in 07-08?

I don't really expect you to put you hater glasses away and be objective though.

back then if i'm not mistaken he also suffered from a light injury, he played with an injury, cmiiw

Hasan
19 Nov 12, 12:08
I can't undarstand how player who is paid 65-70 milions isn't world class? Stupid scouts after one good season decided that he's 70 milion player?! C'mon browha ... get serious, you're quality poster but this is just pure "hate".

After Ronaldo he's the biggest transfer ever, behind him are Kaka and Zidane. Only Messi could break that numbers in near future. Other players are just ... behind.

.h.
19 Nov 12, 12:27
I can't undarstand how player who is paid 65-70 milions isn't world class? Stupid scouts after one good season decided that he's 70 milion player?! C'mon browha ... get serious, you're quality poster but this is just pure "hate".

After Ronaldo he's the biggest transfer ever, behind him are Kaka and Zidane. Only Messi could break that numbers in near future. Other players are just ... behind.


that argument is moot, because after 1 season they shipped him out for 24 million, realizing a 42million loss on him. So, yes mistakes happen. Its like when Veron signed for United for 28.1m, it doesn't mean he was worth that, they fucked up and they knew it. I'm not arguing Veron wasn't class at Inter, and before United.

Or when Mendieta moved for huge money to Barca... Shevchenko to Chelsea... the valuation of a player does NOT justify his class.

monster09
19 Nov 12, 12:40
that argument is moot, because after 1 season they shipped him out for 24 million, realizing a 42million loss on him. So, yes mistakes happen. Its like when Veron signed for United for 28.1m, it doesn't mean he was worth that, they fucked up and they knew it. I'm not arguing Veron wasn't class at Inter, and before United.

Or when Mendieta moved for huge money to Barca... Shevchenko to Chelsea... the valuation of a player does NOT justify his class.

Yeah I dont buy this transfer fee argument. Still Ibra is world class ;)

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01701/andy-carroll_1701661c.jpg
http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/Andy-Carroll_1.jpg

Bergpavian
19 Nov 12, 12:49
If it doesn't matter that he is the player who generated the highest transfer fee, then maybe that he was the record earner in Inter, in Barcelona, in Milan and now in PSG.

Edit: Damn. I didn't want to discuss here anymore.

Hasan
19 Nov 12, 12:58
You can make mistake with 25-30 milion player but it's rare that you buy 65-70 milion player and make mistake. You have maybe 3-4 player in the world who can reach 60 milions plus value.

.h.
19 Nov 12, 13:00
he earned less than Sneijder at Inter, he barely earned more than Flamini, Barca certainly didnt pay him as much as Messi...

and PSG is PSG.

Eto'o is the best paid player in the world - twice as much as Messi - does that mean he's twice as good? No.




You can make mistake with 25-30 milion player but it's rare that you buy 65-70 milion player and make mistake. You have maybe 3-4 player in the world who can reach 60 milions plus value.

and yet they did make a mistake, because they were happy to offload him for a 40 million euro loss.

Dont let your opinion cloud the facts. They lost an awful lot of money on Ibrahimovic, its not like they sold him for the same price they bought him for. He was a HUGE loss.

rockball
19 Nov 12, 13:22
he earned less than Sneijder at Inter, he barely earned more than Flamini, Barca certainly didnt pay him as much as Messi...


That's factually incorrect. He earned much more than Sneijder, much more than Flamini and was 2nd highest paid and almost as much as Messi.

Jimmy Page
19 Nov 12, 13:36
Yeah flamini earned something like 4.5 milion euros and Zlatan something like 8-9 milions

.h.
19 Nov 12, 14:07
the milan numbers are true, im not sure on the barca numbers, but are you really sure he earned more than 12m euros at Inter? I thought only Messi and Ronaldo - at that time - earned more than 10m worldwide... and maybe Tevez

Bergpavian
19 Nov 12, 14:09
... Barca certainly didnt pay him as much as Messi ...

When he came to Barcelona he was the player who earned most and then they raised Messis wage to make him highest payed player again.

What I mean: He was the highest payed player in three of the greatest teams of the world (well, in Barcelona only for a short time) and in a club where money doesn't matter. Must be a reason for that.

vasilios
19 Nov 12, 14:14
the milan numbers are true, im not sure on the barca numbers, but are you really sure he earned more than 12m euros at Inter? I thought only Messi and Ronaldo - at that time - earned more than 10m worldwide... and maybe Tevez

The year before we sold him we gave him a massive pay raise.

Here's the GDS numbers
http://forzainterforums.com/showthread.php?5577-Players-amp-Coaches-Contracts&p=986691&viewfull=1#post986691

rfU
19 Nov 12, 14:17
ibra has world class skill and technique but wht about mentality? look at the games against us in the UCL 09/10 season. I wasn't even worried. you can't be considered a world class player and have a top tier side built around you wen you disappear like that in consecutive games. World class player, no, not for me.

.h.
19 Nov 12, 14:29
When he came to Barcelona he was the player who earned most and then they raised Messis wage to make him highest payed player again.

What I mean: He was the highest payed player in three of the greatest teams of the world (well, in Barcelona only for a short time) and in a club where money doesn't matter. Must be a reason for that.

and theres also a reason why barca were prepared to take a 40 million hit on him when they sold him, after one year....

maybe they made him a highly paid player because its the only way they could signh im? look at that defender at chelsea for 3 years, very highly paid - one of the highest in the squad - and didnt play a single game.

take home pay means nothing. performances do.

Bergpavian
19 Nov 12, 16:52
We are talking about being top earner in three of the greatest teams (+ Paris Sheikh Germain) and you came up with a Chelsea defender "very highly paid - one of the highest in the squad".

When Inter raised his wages he was THE top earner in the football world.

Then Barcelona came up, payed 65 millions for him and made him earn as much as in Milano.

Aber his "disastrous" season in Barcelona, where he still managed to score regular (16 league goals) till he had his problems with the coach, Milan came up and made him top earner of their team (and 2011/12 of the league by far).

And after them a sheikh came up. Bought him, made him the player that generated the most transfer expenses ever (ok, who cares about that) and made him top earner of their team.

Take home money means nothing, Performances do?!?!

Don't you think that there must be a reason that they aaaaall payed him that much??? Is it aaaaall about his beautiful hair style???


maybe they made him a highly paid player because its the only way they could signh im?

WHY DID THEY WANT TO SIGN HIM THAT DESPERATELY???

rfU
19 Nov 12, 18:11
WHY DID THEY WANT TO SIGN HIM THAT DESPERATELY???Consistency. Ibra's a consistently good goal scorer. you're guaranteed 20+ goals a season with Ibra. Also, he's one of the most injury free players out there. At least he was. If you had to choose between Ibra and (the real) ronaldo, who would you pick? Ibra. Right? That said, who's the better of the two?

wicked wizard
19 Nov 12, 19:44
comparing any one to the real ronaldon is unfair. a few not so good preferences in high profile matches dosent mean his not world class

.h.
19 Nov 12, 19:46
Ibrahimovic is the record largest depreciation in an asset valur in football history. Disaster. Except SAFs whiskey collection.

figer
19 Nov 12, 20:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7gyhiRGG40&feature=context-vrec

vasilios
19 Nov 12, 20:12
charming fellow

Hasan
20 Nov 12, 05:54
Dont let your opinion cloud the facts. They lost an awful lot of money on Ibrahimovic, its not like they sold him for the same price they bought him for. He was a HUGE loss.

After row with a coach we decided to sell maybe the best striker in footbal history. And coach was Hector Cuper, fair speaking he's noone in our history but still, we decided to stay behind a coach and sell Ronaldo.

Ibra had a row with Guardiola, the best coach in Barca's history. Of course they will stay behind coach like that.

.h.
20 Nov 12, 09:06
and at the end of the day

he will always be the single biggest depreciation in an asset in footballing history.

:)

that is a label he will never be able to escape.

Hasan
20 Nov 12, 10:37
In your eyes maybe. That's the diference betwen two cultures, it will pass time and time to agree.

You have huge respect for Rooney and Messi because they don't have to do tricks and still geting results with their speed and phisical presence. I undarstand that and your theory have perfect sence.

But I would allways pay double ticket to watch Ibrahimović or Ronaldinho than Rooney or Messi (I admit they can be spectacular too but...

You need to have charisma to be a star on Balkan. That's totaly diferent culture. Probably wrong but still ... it's in our blod.

.h.
20 Nov 12, 10:54
In your eyes maybe. That's the diference betwen two cultures, it will pass time and time to agree.

You have huge respect for Rooney and Messi because they don't have to do tricks and still geting results with their speed and phisical presence. I undarstand that and your theory have perfect sence.

But I would allways pay double ticket to watch Ibrahimović or Ronaldinho than Rooney or Messi (I admit they can be spectacular too but...

You need to have charisma to be a star on Balkan. That's totaly diferent culture. Probably wrong but still ... it's in our blod.


Your understanding of my respect for these players is wrong. I respect them because of their end product, and I admire the path they use to get there. Whether it be through flair, physicality, speed, or something else, its still beautiful and enjoyable. Its a different artistic interpretation of the game, and I admire them all. As such I do respect Ronaldo's ability alot (though not really the person) - though I do feel Messi is a better player.

Nonetheless, I do NOT think he's world class. As rfu posted above, he's got world class talent, no one will argue that. World class technique, again, no one will argue that. One might even argue in that aspect he's better than Ronaldo or Messi etc. But what he lacks is the mentality to make him world class.


It reminds me of something said of Recoba once:



He was perhaps summed up best in a 2003 Guardian article. The reporter commented that few, if any, have been born with Recoba's ability; however, his mentality continues to fail him at the most crucial moments – he continued by comparing Recoba with Real Madrid's Raul, whom he stated has only half or even a quarter of Recoba's ability and technique, but the mentality of a true champion. In a situation where Recoba loses his heart for the match, Raul's mentality serves only to heighten his workrate and focus his skills.


This is true for Zlatan. It's not quite as dramatic as it is for Recoba, as Zlatan was 90% the player he could be, but had he come into this game with a proper mentality, he could be going down as one of the best ever players. I really believe that.

rockball
20 Nov 12, 11:16
Recoba and Zlatan are different. Recoba didn't have the mentality, but Zlatan has. The problem is that the kind of player he is, you can't insert him and make a team play well. Because of his physique and flair, he ends up being the focal point of the team and too much starts depending on him. At Inter, everything went through him.

At Barca, he played well but they wanted someone to get on with their style and it can't happen with Zlatan. Over the years Milan were always an attacking team but even with other creative forces in the team like Pirlo, Seedorf, Pato, Cassano, they were always dependent on Ibra. The same will happen with PSG even though they have no dearth of attacking or any talent in the squad. And its difficult for a team to win when it depends so much on one person.

.h.
20 Nov 12, 11:41
Recoba and Zlatan are different. Recoba didn't have the mentality, but Zlatan has. The problem is that the kind of player he is, you can't insert him and make a team play well. Because of his physique and flair, he ends up being the focal point of the team and too much starts depending on him. At Inter, everything went through him.

At Barca, he played well but they wanted someone to get on with their style and it can't happen with Zlatan. Over the years Milan were always an attacking team but even with other creative forces in the team like Pirlo, Seedorf, Pato, Cassano, they were always dependent on Ibra. The same will happen with PSG even though they have no dearth of attacking or any talent in the squad. And its difficult for a team to win when it depends so much on one person.

then surely that player cant be world class?!? how the fuck can a world class player make it HARDER for a team to win?

this is EXACTLY why I keep saying Zlatan is in his own ibrahimovic class.

and zlatans mentality is a lot better than recoba's, but its not world class. which sort of brings me back to why i posted that quote. zlatan has world class technique and skill. hes not a world class player. raul was quite limited (in some ways) in terms of skill, but he had world class mentality, tactical ability, etc. and as suhc, raul was a world class player.

rockball
20 Nov 12, 14:28
No browha, he may not be world class to you; but there isn't much wrong with his mentality. Like I said, its his characteristics that always make him a one-man team.

chipschups
20 Nov 12, 15:25
well,, I dont want to admit it tbh,,
for sure his a world class player,,

Zlatan did bring BBilan crap squad win scud single handedly
(a credit too to thiago and abbiati at that time)
even made allegri and boateng have a best season in they entire career,,
and now look at when they dont have Zlatan nowhere near them,, they're back to where they belong :lol:

Zlatan left JuBe >> Let in B
Zlatan left inter >> Inter got a CL
Zlatan left Barca >> Barca got a CL
Zlatan left BBilan >> total crap


:awyeah: that one seriously should be taken as a world class achievement

rfU
20 Nov 12, 16:14
No browha, he may not be world class to you; but there isn't much wrong with his mentality. Like I said, its his characteristics that always make him a one-man team.characteristics or personality? Anyway doesn't explain how he completely bottles it sometimes. Sure he could score a title winning goal against Parma (actually two) he bottles it against the likes of Chellini each and every time. And its not like a one off where Ibra was just having a bad game or coming back from injury (as he was vs parma) it happened time and time again, a mental block he just couldn't break through. Happened against Inter, I just knew he wouldn't score. Hell we all knew. Players like Baggio, Figo or Ronaldo didn't have those problems against there former sides. He just hasn't shown his worth against a top side on the big stage. His stunning 4 goal masterclass was a friendly. Beautifully well taken and stunning goals but in a friendly.

victor_inter
20 Nov 12, 16:32
zlatan earned 11 million at milan. i remember i checked gazzeta news about highest paid players in serie a. btw i lol'ed hard at flamini getting 4.5 million lol wtf? only us and milan always overpay their players.

IRR26
20 Nov 12, 17:09
well,, I dont want to admit it tbh,,
for sure his a world class player,,

Zlatan did bring BBilan crap squad win scud single handedly
(a credit too to thiago and abbiati at that time)
even made allegri and boateng have a best season in they entire career,,
and now look at when they dont have Zlatan nowhere near them,, they're back to where they belong :lol:

Zlatan left JuBe >> Let in B
Zlatan left inter >> Inter got a CL
Zlatan left Barca >> Barca got a CL
Zlatan left BBilan >> total crap


:awyeah: that one seriously should be taken as a world class achievement

So good team is better without him and bad team cant live without him.

sanka
20 Nov 12, 20:47
Jim Carrey is world class.

nuff said.

Numero Dieci
20 Nov 12, 21:53
Yet he never won an Oscar.

ADRossi
20 Nov 12, 22:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7gyhiRGG40&feature=context-vrec

Regardless of what Browha says, no one has ever been able to argue the fact he's a world-class, quality individual. If he would have succeeded at Barca, they probably would have renamed UNICEF to IBRACEF

.h.
21 Nov 12, 09:37
Regardless of what Browha says, no one has ever been able to argue the fact he's a world-class, quality individual. If he would have succeeded at Barca, they probably would have renamed UNICEF to IBRACEF
Except I Did argue it. And quite a few people agree....

He's got world class technique, and talent. No dispute. He's not a world class player. This isn't street football, it isn't about the shit you can do with the ball, its about the shit you can do for the team. Someone might be able to pull off all the fucking tricks in the world, but at the end of the day, if they can't deliver, they arent a top player.

I don't mean that specifically in regards to Ibrahimovic, but just generically. It's too easy for kids to look at Ronaldo (for example) these days and just assume that if they can pull off those kinda tricks, they'll succeed at being footballers. Look at the street football championships in England for a perfect example of why that's retarded. The best thing the winner there has ever done is double up for Ronaldo in adverts.

victor_inter
21 Nov 12, 13:26
yeah spot on there by brownha. Just cuz some pipsqueak kid who thinks he is messi dribbles and does some flashy showboating tricks doesnt mean he will picked for an actual game unless ofcourse that dribble created a chance to score etc or atleast peg back the opposition team. Take quaresma for example, i would say his technique and skill is world class and almost on par with ibra if u watch some of his games during his porto days, u will notice it too but was he good for inter? no so he aint a top player in that aspect.

ADRossi
21 Nov 12, 16:15
Except I Did argue it. And quite a few people agree....

He's got world class technique, and talent. No dispute. He's not a world class player. This isn't street football, it isn't about the shit you can do with the ball, its about the shit you can do for the team. Someone might be able to pull off all the fucking tricks in the world, but at the end of the day, if they can't deliver, they arent a top player.

I don't mean that specifically in regards to Ibrahimovic, but just generically. It's too easy for kids to look at Ronaldo (for example) these days and just assume that if they can pull off those kinda tricks, they'll succeed at being footballers. Look at the street football championships in England for a perfect example of why that's retarded. The best thing the winner there has ever done is double up for Ronaldo in adverts.

fml :palm:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm?s=t

Besnik
24 Nov 12, 18:16
2 goals & 2 assists on his comeback from the suspension. not too shabby :D

visionary
25 Nov 12, 00:01
Except I Did argue it. And quite a few people agree....

He's got world class technique, and talent. No dispute. He's not a world class player. This isn't street football, it isn't about the shit you can do with the ball, its about the shit you can do for the team. Someone might be able to pull off all the fucking tricks in the world, but at the end of the day, if they can't deliver, they arent a top player.
I don't mean that specifically in regards to Ibrahimovic, but just generically. It's too easy for kids to look at Ronaldo (for example) these days and just assume that if they can pull off those kinda tricks, they'll succeed at being footballers. Look at the street football championships in England for a perfect example of why that's retarded. The best thing the winner there has ever done is double up for Ronaldo in adverts.
If though you were suggesting that being a world-class player one needs to show up for big games.
Come on, Ronaldo only showed up like what half of the el classicos? The rest he played like he wasnt even there. There were even papers calling him a no show. International games so-so again by him? And people call him world class. Why Ibra can't be on the same level if he too has his ups and downs during big games?

I4E
25 Nov 12, 04:49
:trollol:

http://i.imgur.com/dJWQ0.jpg

Hasan
25 Nov 12, 05:43
He only scores on training this season so that must be truth. :D

The Wall
25 Nov 12, 16:57
After row with a coach we decided to sell maybe the best striker in footbal history. And coach was Hector Cuper, fair speaking he's noone in our history but still, we decided to stay behind a coach and sell Ronaldo.



This never happenend.

Multiple Inter people like Moratti and Zanetti confirmed it was all about Ronaldo wanting out and whoring himself to Madrid.

.h.
01 Dec 12, 20:46
zlatan ibrahimovic, they said, world class, they said.

bwahahahaha

Pimpin
01 Dec 12, 20:48
browha this one was pathetic, almost as pathetic as Milito haters.

Bergpavian
01 Dec 12, 20:53
zlatan ibrahimovic, they said, world class, they said.

bwahahahaha

Yeah. Scorred only one goal today. Loser. :palm:

sanka
01 Dec 12, 20:57
Only way you can call him loser and have every right to, is when you lose your bet and see PSG going down to Nancy.

:cereal:

.h.
01 Dec 12, 21:06
behind lyon and saint etienne in the league, just knocked out of the french cup, behind porto in the champions league (but will qualify).

Thats what happens when Ibrahimovic carries the team. He'll score a fuckload of goals, but they wont be the important ones you need ;)

Great for a mediocre side. Crap for a team that actually has some other good players.

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 21:07
lool ibra not allowed 1 okyish game now

Besnik
01 Dec 12, 21:07
behind lyon and saint etienne in the league, just knocked out of the french cup, behind porto in the champions league (but will qualify).

Thats what happens when Ibrahimovic carries the team. He'll score a fuckload of goals, but they wont be the important ones you need http://forzainterforums.com/images/smilies/wink3.gif

Great for a mediocre side. Crap for a team that actually has some other good players.

i must admit, sometimes it's nice to read your posts but honestly your view regarding ibrahimovic is just pathetic.. just saying

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 21:09
he did good at juve when they had a sik team

.h.
01 Dec 12, 21:18
i must admit, sometimes it's nice to read your posts but honestly your view regarding ibrahimovic is just pathetic.. just saying

Shrug. I firmly believe my opinion on this. He's a very good player, but to mention him in the same bracket as CR, Messi, Ronaldo, Zidane, is a fucking insult to those legends.


he did good at juve when they had a sik team
No, not really.

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 21:26
lol inslut c ronaldo can only dream of been tht talented even messi to some extent. and ask Zidane wat he thinks of ibra, your under ratting of a magicle player is a insult to football

.h.
01 Dec 12, 21:29
lol inslut c ronaldo can only dream of been tht talented even messi to some extent. and ask Zidane wat he thinks of ibra, your under ratting of a magicle player is a insult to football

Now I know you're taking the piss....

Let me give you a hint:

Whose the odd one out?

Z. Ibrahimovic (0)
L. Messi (3)
C. Ronaldo (1)
Z. Zidane (1)

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 21:33
lol whos gives a fuck about that popularity contest

.h.
01 Dec 12, 21:36
well considering its an award as voted in by footballing journalists from around the world, if its a commonly held conception that he's world class, then he should be featuring high up on those lists. as far as I'm aware, he's never even made the shortlist....
Not world class. I can see, again, why people confuse him for a world class player, but to assert that Messi and Ronaldo can only dream of being as good as Ibrahimovic is so retarded there are 5 year olds born with downs syndrome with oxygen starved brains who aren't that ***edited so I dont get an infraction***.

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 21:44
u dont put ibra up there with messi but u put rooney up there?. thts all i have to say really, and yes ibra is more talented thn ronaldo in every way really maby not on fifa but in rl. am not saying ibra better thn messi but scores goals tht messi cunt attempt. he defently up there

.h.
01 Dec 12, 21:51
u dont put ibra up there with messi but u put rooney up there?. thts all i have to say really, and yes ibra is more talented thn ronaldo in every way really maby not on fifa but in rl. am not saying ibra better thn messi but scores goals tht messi cunt attempt. he defently up there

Yeah, I put rooney up there because this is not street football. This isn't fucking Nike's joga bonito, or any of that flair shit.

It's about end product. It doesn't matter how you get there, what matters is the fact that you get there.

Go look in the streets, you can find fucking thousands of kids that can do all sorts of flair tricks. Look at Bojan, only person I can remember in history who did a rainbow on his debut. That blew Ronaldinho's mind. Hasn't gotten him anywhere.


We're talking about real football here. Not the showboating championship. And whilst I've never argued that Ibrahimovic doesn't score spectacular goals - that's just a fact - that alone doesn't make him a world class player.

He's simply not on the level, mentally, nor in terms of overall end product and effectiveness, that Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney (for recent examples) ARE on.


Take away 25% of his talent, and give him 25% more mentality/end product, he'd be quite possibly greatest player to have played football. But as he stands, he isnt. Not even near the level of the best in football today.



I'm looking forward to when PSG dont win the title, and when they get knocked out in the CL.

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

on a separate note:

here's a list of world class players in football today as by Wicked Wizard's criteria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tODfd1l-ns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE6AnxiTe0A

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 22:01
you macking out like ibrs some punk with skills but no end product. i know the diffrence between street football and real footy. when we fist got ricky i said he was like a street footballer, can dribble got skill but what els can he do. and i wa right. ibra is far from 1 of them playes. and rooney flops 2 like for england in the quater finals when he showed the world he was 15 times better thn cassano

.h.
01 Dec 12, 22:04
if rooney is a flop for england, what is ibrahimovic for sweden? I mean, you know, ignoring those goals in a friendly.
Ronaldo -
"Only player to score in 6 consecutive El Clasico's, and another tonght against Atletico"

Messi has scored the most goals in a calendar year


Whats Zlatan EVER done to even be CLOSE to a level with them?

A few spectacular goals, yes, no one will ever dispute that, but he's not on the same level as Messi and Ronaldo. Except for the handful of Zlatan fanboys, and the people from the balkans.

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 22:18
well england (suposedly) have had a way better team thn sweden. u dont expect ibra to win the world cup with them do u. and ronaldo only stared score agenst barca when they had shit deffence agenst Piqué and puyol no goals. but there other arguments, it seems to me u just judge players on hype or wat they have achieved . my fave plyer recoba never achieved much but still 1 of the bset playes i seen in my life

.h.
01 Dec 12, 22:21
well england (suposedly) have had a way better team thn sweden. u dont expect ibra to win the world cup with them do u. and ronaldo only stared score agenst barca when they had shit deffence agenst Piqué and puyol no goals. but there other arguments, it seems to me u just judge players on hype or wat they have achieved . my fave plyer recoba never achieved much but still 1 of the bset playes i seen in my life

I judge players on the complete package. You judge them purely on technical abilities. It's a very limited view.

For me, a good footballer is someone who can consistently deliver the end product. It doesn't give a flying fuck how they get there, as long as they can do it (and against reasonably top opposition, too). I don't care if that means they have to juggle the ball with their head, or do a trillion stepovers, or just use speed and skill to get past a player. End product is the only thing that counts.

Thousands of dumb kids see it the same way you do - that they have to learn all the tricks to become a top player, when infact its the other way around. Top players are decided by mentality, their flair and other aspects are characteristics, rather than the cause. And people get the wrong impression from some modern footballers now, that all they need to do is learn to juggle the ball with a blindfold to become a world class player, when it couldn't be further than the truth.



Football is, on the simplest level, the battle between an attacker and a defender. How you get past them is irrelevant, whether its graceful, inelegant, or through deceit. Its about that. Everyone looks at the tricks and assume thats the driver, rather than vice versa.


Its like X-factor now. Was it the lead singer of Dire Straits? Maybe? Who said

"If any of these kids actually cared about making music, they'd be out there making music, not auditioning on X-factor".

That summarizes very nicely the fucking retarded mentality of ~60% of kids who want to be footballers today. Its the exact same deal as Arnautovic, for example, or Daminuta, people like that. They don't appreciate that they've got the causality completely wrong.

Pimpin
01 Dec 12, 22:28
Am I the only one who is getting sick of this debate?

you both have different definition of World Class, so please both of you just stfu.

Oh and also fuck Ibra :work:

wicked wizard
01 Dec 12, 22:30
no no no. kids should be taught technique and to work on they abilitys. look at england where tall fast fit tons of mentality but no technique. look at spain look like a bunch of ladys . but they way technical supiror. thats why they play like from a other planet to us. hope your not a coach

.h.
01 Dec 12, 22:33
no no no. kids should be taught technique and to work on they abilitys. look at england where tall fast fit tons of mentality but no technique. look at spain look like a bunch of ladys . but they way technical supiror. thats why they play like from a other planet to us. hope your not a coach

There's an awfully large difference between keeping calm under pressure and showboating retarded tricks and learning kung fu.

I'm not suggesting they shouldn't learn any technique, but rather, learning to show boat like Ronaldo, Quaresma, Ibrahimovic (for examples) gets you nowhere. Learn the basic skills first, and then get the mentality down. Then, if you feel you need some tricks as part of your game, that comes with time in due course. Works for all the most successful players in history ;)

Remember, in this world 99% of professional players will not use tricks readily in a professional match. 99% of showboaters will never play a professional match. Never forget that.


What you're talking about is before they get into academies. I agree on the U-12 or so scale they should learn exclusively technique, but after that, it should be 100% focus on mentality. Look at Wenger, his opinion is that everything you know how to do with a football, you know by age 12-13...




Infact, if you want to talk about Spain.. look at what Barcelona do. What do they focus on in training? Possession under pressure. They don't stand there doing back heels and shit like that, its all about building confidence on the ball. It's not about teaching them how to retain the ball under pressure, but rather, teaching them to be confident enough to do it in a match.

NiklasSkoog
04 Dec 12, 01:38
is browha trolling us or have *he never seen a soccer game? Zlatan is at this moment the second best player in the world. And being the second best player after messi isnt really that bad... There isnt one national team or any club that ibra wouldnt be starting in today. FACT.

I4E
04 Dec 12, 01:42
is browha trolling us or have *he never seen a soccer game? Zlatan is at this moment the second best player in the world. And being the second best player after messi isnt really that bad... There isnt one national team or any club that ibra wouldnt be starting in today. FACT.

Better than Ronaldo :notbad:

Browha has seen many, many, many 'soccer' games. He's seen them on Playstation, Nintendo, Xbox, PC...

NiklasSkoog
04 Dec 12, 07:41
Meh, ofcourse ronaldo is also one of a kind but these past weeks it's not been clicking for him. Now against atletico we anti-barca people hope he can start playing at his top again..

.h.
04 Dec 12, 07:49
Except for the handful of Zlatan fanboys, and the people from the balkans.



i'll just leave this here

Hasan
04 Dec 12, 08:50
Infact, if you want to talk about Spain.. look at what Barcelona do. What do they focus on in training? Possession under pressure. They don't stand there doing back heels and shit like that, its all about building confidence on the ball. It's not about teaching them how to retain the ball under pressure, but rather, teaching them to be confident enough to do it in a match.

Dude, they are doing that for 100 years in their school. Of course Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc. know how to act when that's their life from young young age.

They have:
- the best coaches
- great infrastracture
- medical teams
- greatest young talents in the world (that's important because you have a chance to play against the best on every training)
- etc.etc.

Boys like Ronaldinho, Ibrahimović, Robinho, Adriano, Stoichkov, George Hagi, Prosinečki etc. are rough talents, champions of their streets from childhood.

Look at that Brasilian talents and imagine how good they would be with that talent and 5-6 years of Barca schooll in their heads. Ronaldinho and Adriano were briliant players but lack of discipline, fame and money changed them into amateurs very fast. Robinho will never undarstand when to pass but he will allways be king in Brasil because he can drible. Pele and helicopter will wait him all the time. That's a culture, that's in their DNA's and they will allways be loved in the world just because of that. Street forcing them to make tricks ant drible, fans in Brasil love that like in England fans love good sliding tacke by Paul Ice, craizyness of Gazza or Cantona etc.

On Balkan you must be "Fakin" (don't know how to translate that) to be king of the street. You must be talented and be the best in fighting, drinking, gambeling etc to gain respect of the street. Still remember, no footbaling school, no training in camps before you are the best in the street. If you got soften for just one second, street will eat you.

Couple examples:

1. Hristo Stoichkov, first training in the Bulgarian first league and captain of the team asks him: who are you kid? Answer: I am Hristo Stoickov, who the fack are you?

2. Robert Prosinečki, many guys here don't know him bu he was the best young player in the world 1988, won champions league with Red Dtar, played for Real and Barca, smoked two packs on day and could drink all night with any rock band in Madrid. When journalist from Madrid asked him: What will you do to adapt on Madrid game? Answer: Why should I adapt on their game, they shoud adapt to me.

3. Zvonimir Boban, great professional with a dangerous head. After fans broke on stadium he kicked a cop do defend a fan. And he was lucky that cop didn't lissen comand an killed him for that. But in that moment, he was ready to lose his head for a fan.

4. Blaž Slišković. together with Francescoli he was Zidane's idol. Fans of Hajduk, Marselle and Pescara were crazy about him. King of the pitch, crazy of the pitch. Gambling, drinking etc. He had to have that habits to go on.

Imagine how hard trip Ibrahimović had. Born in Sweden but never accepted 100%, grow up in streets where people from Balkan are cheefs, played in amateur clubs where only kids from Balkan have played. He had to be the best if he wanted chanse to prove himself with regular Swedish kids. He had to learn kung fu and karate shit to be tough guy because his street was Balkan, not Malmo.

I repect Barcelona but not even near like street fighters Ibrahimović, Stoickov, Boban or street artist like Maradona, Ronaldinho, Prosinečki, Hagi etc.

Imagine their talent in Barca footbal schooll from age 12-13.

CafeCordoba
04 Dec 12, 08:56
Very good points Hasan. Barca football is more like industry, not plain football anymore. It's clinical, it's an assembly line.

Wallace
04 Dec 12, 09:00
Judging players completely by their level of outputs results in a strongly biased comparison. I saw some people were comparing the amount of goals scored between C.Ronaldo, Messi, and Ibrahimovic in club levels, and Rooney and Ibrahimovic in national levels.

I never truly understood these types of utterly nonsensical comparisons. First of all, C.Ronaldo is surrounded by a star studded team, all capable of assisting him and getting his tally up there. How can this be compared to Ibrahimovic, when he was in the likes of Milan and Inter? If you really want to compare, then compare to his time now in PSG, which still isn't an entirely fair comparison due to the length of time this PSG squad has played together.

Secondly, they're in geographically different regions, how can you compare the number of goals scored when the level of defense between these leagues are completely different?

I'm also baffled with the comparison between the England national team and the Sweden national team, I mean are you fucking serious? Sweden wouldn't have been able to make it to the group stages of past World Cup and the Euros without Ibrahimovic, he was absolutely pivotal in their play the way they keep on launching long balls to him. I'm sure the people who commented on this haven't watched the Sweden national team much.

Since you people love comparing players by the number of goals and assists, then I might as well also compare them with their stats this season. C.Ronaldo: 20 appearances, 18 goals, 2 assists, that's 1 goal/assist per game. Ibrahimovic: 19 appearances, 16 goals, 7 assists, that comes to 1.15 goals/assists per game. So tell me, how is C.Ronaldo this vastly superior to Ibrahimovic, how does Rooney's 17 goals/assists in 15 games make him a world class player but not Ibrahimovic's?

I'm not trying to put down any of C.Ronaldo, Messi, nor Rooney, they are all world class players. I'm just simply flabbergasted with the level of hatred on Ibrahimovic that blinds people into believing that he's several levels below those guys. Fact is, in terms of both efficiency and technical abilities, Ibrahimovic is up there with those guys. If the argument against Ibrahimovic was made prior to 2007/2008, then I'd partially agree with it. But since then, Ibrahimovic has made huge steps in improving his efficiency in front of goal, which deserves respect just as C.Ronaldo/Messi/Rooney does.

.h.
04 Dec 12, 09:04
Whilst a very interesting post, it's completely irrelevant.

I couldnt care less about how and why someone got to where they are....

But, as you point out, its ALL mentality. That is how footballers are trained in academies. Do you think, aged 16/17/18, they are on the training pitch practicing their crosses? No. It's all about mentality and confidence.

Like I quoted from Wenger, kids who want to be professional footballers will have all their skills by age 12. After that, it is entirely mental and physical.



That's my point. That's where the emphasis should be. I'm not talking about what you do if there are 1000 5 year olds looking to learn to play football for the first time. I'm talking about how academies train the U-12 and onwards, where you start to get selected by your ability and you're already in the top 1% of football players for your age group nationwide. These guys need nothing but mental focus, and confidence building.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

I'm not arguing that he isn't an impressive player. I've said that thousands of times, he's a very impressive player.

But for me, he's not on the level that Messi/Ronaldo/Rooney are.

For one thing, those three have all scored goals in CL finals, semi-finals, quarters, etc, on a very regular basis.


If it wasn't for the 'big game' side of Ibrahimovic, he WOULD be up there, but he lacks the mentality to help him deliver on that top level.

Who was it who posted it earlier? FFii? A list of all the goals and big games Ibra has played in since like 2005...

Hasan
04 Dec 12, 10:32
Like I quoted from Wenger, kids who want to be professional footballers will have all their skills by age 12. After that, it is entirely mental and physical.

Wnger is a little bit crazy (wierd) about it. I believe that FIFA or EPL alows it, that he would play some 12 or 14 yrs old boys in Prmiership. In every job you can improve <our skills a learn something new if you work on daily basis. Why footbal would be diferent?

.h.
04 Dec 12, 10:36
Wnger is a little bit crazy (wierd) about it. I believe that FIFA or EPL alows it, that he would play some 12 or 14 yrs old boys in Prmiership. In every job you can improve <our skills a learn something new if you work on daily basis. Why footbal would be diferent?

Because, on the level we're talking about, these kids will have done all that already.

The general guideline is that you need to do something for 10,000 hours to become an expert in it. These kids are playing football since they are 3, 4, 5 years old. If you say 4 hours a day, thats 2500 days, or about 7 years.

I know, we're all sat here in our arm chairs thinking 'holy fuck, 4 hours a day!' But, then, remember... People like Beckham used to do (I will admit free kicks are a bit different, they are a very specific skill) free kick training 6-8 hours a day - after lunch till sunset, Joe Cole used to do kick ups at parties for 3-4 hours ontop of his regular individual training...


By 14, the talent and skills are all there. EVERYTHING you focus on from that point on is to take them to the next level, e.g. being a professional. That means match experience, handling the pressure, building confidence, teaching them the 'mental' side of the game - e.g. how to spot a pass, how to look for the movement of your teammates, how to deliver lethal end product - and making them stronger/more built.

I mean, shit, there's that video of Ronaldinho as an 11 year old ? Doing all the fucking tricks he did in adulthood.

95% of the skills are there. What you focus on in a top club's youth academy is the harder team-work based stuff that makes the difference between being a professional and not.



I know it's a bit of a shit, to think that we couldn't go into an academy now and learn enough to be a professional player if we put our minds to it, but its sadly the truth.

wicked wizard
04 Dec 12, 20:48
you must not play football if you think you lernt everythinh at 14.

.h.
04 Dec 12, 21:16
you must not play football if you think you lernt everythinh at 14.

Talk to Wenger, not me... One of the most accomplished youth coaches in the history of the game ;)

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

http://performance.fourfourtwo.com/pro-tips/how-to-catch-wengers-eye



What’s the youngest age you can tell if a player has the potential to make it? Have you ever looked at a player and known instantly?
At 12 you can detect if technically a player can make it or not. At 14 to 16 you can detect if physically he will be able to cope with the demands of professional sport. And from 16 to 18 you can start to see if a player understands how to connect with other players. At 20 the mental side of things kick in. How does he prepare? How does he cope with life’s temptations and the sacrifices a top player must make? This is a job where you must be ready. If you get a chance, you have to take it.



Like I said, 14 on wards is about developing the player mentally, and in terms of confidence. If you cant cross by 14, you're never going to learn to cross...

I4E
04 Dec 12, 21:22
A friend of mine was the u12 coach at arsenal when he got his coaching tickets in the UK a number of years ago. From what he's told me, it's not really just physical and mental. Those kids are still learning despite the qualities they have.

.h.
04 Dec 12, 21:29
I'm sure they are still learning, but to suggest they should be strongly emphasized on technique is hilarious.

What you focus on, more than anything, is getting them to click into a team and getting them to deliver in match settings. I would say the biggest deal is actually getting them working with the team. As it says above, footballing intelligence, you need to develop that into a more refined product.

Like I said, look at any videos of great players as kids, Ronaldinho (for example) was using the same tricks since he was 8. It's just that the product was refined into a lethal end-weapon.

Like I said, you have to remember these kids will have like 10,000 hours of footballing practise by the time they get into academies properly for the first time round (12-14). But most of that experience will be either kick abouts in the parks with friends, or shitty school matches. What they need to do is develop the rest of their game.

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

lets take the inter example

Longo, MBaye, Benassi, Duncan, Tassi, these people all have complete technical skills as they are. What they lack is the mental side, the confidence to perform in a match, and the footballing intelligence/experience to read plays/pick up runs/look for good passes. Infact this works all the way down... Cassani, Bonazzoli, other much younger players we have.

wicked wizard
04 Dec 12, 21:29
well my shooting was kind of poor till i was 21 now its fuking leethel lol. plus got som mates who dint strat playing till 16 who r good now. you can improve at any age

.h.
04 Dec 12, 21:31
well my shooting was kind of poor till i was 21 now its fuking leethel lol. plus got som mates who dint strat playing till 16 who r good now. you can improve at any age


Like I said, clearly you can always develop, but remember the kids who are going to be professional footballers will have been in youth academies since, at least, 14, sometimes as young as 9. They're doing 4-6 hours of football a day, they're years ahead of the footballing curve compared to you, your friends, certainly me.

If you start playing at 16, then clearly you improve very quickly. But if you start playing at 16, you're also not in a youth academy from the age of 9.

Lets say a kid starts playing football at 5, plays 2 hours a day every day of the week until they are 14. Thats 2 * 365 * 9 = 6500 hours already, by the time they are 14, and I think 2 hours a day is an under-estimate. I mean, the top kids will be doing it all lunch at school, then an hour or so at home, and down the park for 6 hours on saturday and another 6 on sunday.


Remember, we're not talking about Jimmy Interested-In-Football Baggs. We're talking about some kid who wants to be a professional footballer and has invested his entire life in it - thats the sort of background 99.999% of the people who succeed at it come from.

Pimpin
04 Dec 12, 21:45
I don't know how it goes in football, but in basketball in 12 year olds you can see quality, but there are dudes that from 12 till 14 can make so much progress that they can make other talented dudes his bitches..

I4E
04 Dec 12, 22:13
well my shooting was kind of poor till i was 21 now its fuking leethel lol. plus got som mates who dint strat playing till 16 who r good now. you can improve at any age

Mark Viduka was atrocious even up to 18 and was dropped by the AIS academy. Then he suddenly switched on and became a lovable player in Scotland and England... Just saying

.h.
04 Dec 12, 22:17
Mark Viduka was atrocious even up to 18 and was dropped by the AIS academy. Then he suddenly switched on and became a lovable player in Scotland and England... Just saying


Which is a nice example.

Talent was always there, the mentality wasnt.

I4E
04 Dec 12, 22:20
Which is a nice example.

Talent was always there, the mentality wasnt.

He developed immensely in Croatia. Was unrecognizable to the player he was before he left Oz.

Fitzy
04 Dec 12, 22:23
I was a bit young at the time, but wasn't dukes killing it in the NSL before leaving for Croatia?

I4E
04 Dec 12, 22:26
I was a bit young at the time, but wasn't dukes killing it in the NSL before leaving for Croatia?

Had 1 good season with Melb Cro. His Croatian background is what made the move to Europe easy for him.

.h.
04 Dec 12, 22:28
He developed immensely in Croatia. Was unrecognizable to the player he was before he left Oz.

Well, I didnt see him at that point in his career, but I'd almost certainly wager the development was entirely mental. It's not like he's suddenly learning how to kick a ball, but rather, picking up movements of other players and things like that.

NiklasSkoog
04 Dec 12, 22:38
Crap performance today. Alot of wrong passes and no good finishes. Silvas header was insane tough. Hope they get Milan in ottavi! Not sure they would win if they dont improve their team chemistry..

monster09
05 Dec 12, 06:23
Mark Viduka was atrocious even up to 18 and was dropped by the AIS academy. Then he suddenly switched on and became a lovable player in Scotland and England... Just saying

Drogba was playing in some French second division club untill he was 22 or 23, we can say his menatlity improved and all that but his free kick taking technique improved 100X after frist few seasons at Chelsea, same with Ronaldo.

I have watched several videos of ManUtd acacdemy (coaching) where the players of age 15-18 working on technique most of the times.

Doffy
05 Dec 12, 06:43
I shouldnt have quit football so early. could have been a good one. sniff... i will make my son make up for it. :megusta:

when i get one

figer
10 Dec 12, 16:07
Zlatan Ibrahimovic has laughed off Lionel Messi’s newly set record for most goals in a single year by claiming he could beat the Argentinian’s tally if he was still with Barcelona.

Messi scored his 86th goal of 2012 in Barcelona’s 2-1 win over Real Betis, moving him one clear of the record total set by Gerd Muller in 1972 for Bayern Munich and West Germany.

However far from being impressed by Messi’s goal scoring efforts this year, Ibrahimovic, who endured a tumultuous two years with Barcelona before being shipped out to AC Milan in 2011, was unmoved by his former team-mate's efforts.

The Swede left Barcelona under a cloud after he fell out with then-boss Pep Guardiola and has aimed numerous digs at his former club since.

Now the Paris Saint-Germain striker has claimed he could score more goals than the Messi if he was still with the Catalan club, because of the amount of penalties referees gift to them.

"I too would get 90 goals if I were given penalties as referees give them away to Barcelona,” he told L’Equipe.
:awwyeah:

dynasty27
10 Dec 12, 16:24
^ I told you not wake up browha....

sanka
10 Dec 12, 16:34
way to go!

inb4ibraisreallywccomparedtomessitalk.

thatdude
10 Dec 12, 17:23
Hahaha. I don't think I've ever seen someone so openly sour in my life. This dude is a straight hater.

NiklasSkoog
10 Dec 12, 17:25
It's not a real quote.. Some french journalist that made a joke on twitter that people took seriuosly...

dynasty27
10 Dec 12, 23:21
Hahaha. I don't think I've ever seen someone so openly sour in my life. This dude is a straight hater.Ibra or browha? :yao:

I4E
10 Dec 12, 23:50
:awyeah:

Universe
11 Dec 12, 00:08
Ibra or browha? :yao:

Ibrow

wera
11 Dec 12, 00:46
Ibra is a prick, but he is one of the greatest attacking players of the last 10 years. You know, there were a lot of great ones, even a few that scored more goals than him, but if he wasn't 'a flop' at Barca (we all know what happened there) and because he never won a CL, people don't praise him as much. And because he is not really a likeable chap like Messi, he gets the CR7 treatment.

.h.
11 Dec 12, 08:14
the personality has nothing to do with it for me. I think Ronaldo is a dick, but I can still appreciate the fact that he is one of the best of his generation.

He's consistently failed to deliver on the top stage - throughout his entire career - and he only looks spectacular. I mean shit, even his amazing hat ful was against fucking England in a FRIENDLY. Lets see him do that in the Champions League semis.

wicked wizard
11 Dec 12, 13:51
so you will ignore his whole 10 years but if he scores in on semi cl hes good?.

.h.
11 Dec 12, 13:55
I've never said he wasnt good.... He's just not world class.

rfU
11 Dec 12, 14:01
is ibra more world class than Milito?

.h.
11 Dec 12, 14:05
See, that's a hard one.

On Milito's 09/10 season, he was one of the best strikers in the world, think no one will argue that. But on form leading up to then, and subsequent, Milito doesn't carry a team as much as Ibra does.

It's also somewhat harder to say, because he hasn't had many chances to prove himself on the top stage. For one reason or another it didn't work out with Argentina, and until Inter he never really played in even a decent side (bearing in mind some second division football!).

I would say Ibra is "more world class" than Milito, yes, but Milito on 09/10 form was better than Ibra will ever be, to be honest. Scored a goal in every round of the CL, not to mention the goals that clinched every component of the treble. Ibra will never do that.

wicked wizard
11 Dec 12, 14:08
so he can win the league with ever team hes with he can dominate the league, but unitl he scores agenst schalke 04 or asenal in a one off cl semi final game he not world class?

.h.
11 Dec 12, 14:27
Until he scores regularly against big opposition, no, he's not world class.

He didn't really do it at Milan, he didn't really do it at Barca, he didn't really do it at Inter, he didn't really do it at Juventus.


That's the difference between a good player and a great player.

dynasty27
11 Dec 12, 15:12
no, he's not world class in MY bookFix'ed

.h.
11 Dec 12, 15:14
well, no shit, the definition is inherently going to relay to someones opinion......

Time for 'insightful post of the week' award to dynasty.

wera
11 Dec 12, 17:55
scored another goal today

Besnik
11 Dec 12, 18:12
he scored another two goals in the begining of the second half, so he got a hat-trick so far...

Bergpavian
11 Dec 12, 18:14
scored another goal today

Three till now. Or am I wrong?

wera
11 Dec 12, 18:15
bah, he is not world class, he is not scoring in CL finals

sanka
11 Dec 12, 18:16
1+2=3 hmm right.. it's a hat trick. :pokerface:

...but the question that arises

Is he WC?

:yao:

Bergpavian
11 Dec 12, 18:16
No. Dat ass could've scored 4!

.h.
11 Dec 12, 18:19
My God

you mean Ibrahimovic scored against a team which represents an area total population 400,000? Who won Ligue 2 in 2006, and nothing since? And were an amateur team 14 years ago?

#MUSTBEWORLDCLASS

:ZlatanIsWorldClass:

:ThoseHatTricksAgainstAmateurTeamsAreASignOfRealCl ass:


Sorry, if you want to convince me Ibrahimovic is world class, a hat trick against a provincial side isn't the way to argue it.

Bergpavian
11 Dec 12, 18:21
Who cares that he alone scored more goals in 14 games than OSC Lille - french champion - in 16 games.

.h.
11 Dec 12, 18:23
Montpellier are the last champions, not Lille..

Bergpavian
11 Dec 12, 18:26
Montpellier are the last champions, not Lille..

Sorry. Still 5 goals away from Montpellier. :yao:

.h.
11 Dec 12, 18:29
who, as a side, are doing shit in the league.

I wont dispute that Ibrahimovic doesn't score goals, and doesn't score a lot of them. I've never once argued that...

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

If we're going down this road

how about Philip Hosiner, surely he's world class? he's scored 15 in 13..

Or Raul Rusescu? 17 in 18

How about Michu? 12 goals for a shit team?

Or Abdul Majeed Waris, who scored 23 goals in 29?

NiklasSkoog
11 Dec 12, 18:53
scored 3 today

edit didnt se u already discussed that for 1 hour ..

wicked wizard
11 Dec 12, 18:55
ibra does it ever leagues hes been in tho. u h8 thts fine but ur sounding stupid now

NiklasSkoog
11 Dec 12, 18:57
those have made great seasons so far. Ibra has scored like this the last 10 years...

.h.
11 Dec 12, 19:01
No he hasnt. He's only really been prolific since his last season at Inter. There was one season where he was like 15 in 17 for us, under Mancini (iirc??), but then barely scored in the rest of the season. For example, he never scored a hat trick at Inter (off the top of my head), nor at Juve (i think, but I'm no juve fan).

junior55
11 Dec 12, 19:02
Saying that Ibra is world class is an indisputable fact .
Saying that there are other players (world class) who are better then him is another fact but that in no way negates the first statement.

.h.
11 Dec 12, 19:05
it IS a disputable fact.

I've said a hundred times. My definition of world class probably covers like 20 players at a time. Ibra isn't up there for me.

wicked wizard
11 Dec 12, 19:13
who are these 20 players

.h.
11 Dec 12, 19:22
Dont know off hand, I'd have to think about it a bit.

I would say, clearly, though, Messi and Ronaldo are. Rooney is for me, but lets not have that argument in yet ANOTHER thread. I think if Van Persie can keep up his current performances for the rest of the season (and continue to deliver in the big games), he will be as well. The F-word is almost certainly world class too, but I'd like to see him deliver it at Chelsea (for example).

wicked wizard
11 Dec 12, 19:27
thourght so just most popular players. and you say Van Persie but what has he done that ibra hasent?

.h.
11 Dec 12, 19:29
scored a last minute winner in one of the worlds most important derbies & arguably the most decisive game of the premiership title race to date?

If I was going for just popular players, Ibrahimovic would be on my list too ;)