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wera
05 Jan 14, 15:08
Ancelotti is boss. People will always hate him because he was at Milan, while I liked him even them.

armendsh
05 Jan 14, 16:20
Ancelotti is boss. People will always hate him because he was at Milan, while I liked him even them.

I respect him i dont think everyone hate him , but yes i would hate him if he coached JUBE... Everyone who plays or coaxh jube i hate

Alan
05 Jan 14, 16:49
Ancelotti the dumb fuck, he would have won CL with PSG if he wouldn't have left for RM...



Ancelotti is boss. People will always hate him because he was at Milan, while I liked him even them.

How come you love every player/coach/whatever that Inter supporters usually hate? :chan:

wera
05 Jan 14, 20:35
Why should I hate Ancelotti? Because he did good against us? Because he coached Milan? I'm not a butthurt person, he did his thing well.

Devious
06 Jan 14, 10:49
Come on Ibra, we all knew the truth about you since barca days :yao:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHQmPbcpyQ

Give the poor lusty guy the kiss he needs! :awwyeah:

Batman
06 Jan 14, 12:39
[PSG vs Real Madrid] rich men`s friendly - he stated that he got along the best with Ancelotti, who was a trainer, a father and a friend for him.

And then pulls his hair. :yao:

- - - Updated - - -


How come you love every player/coach/whatever that Inter supporters usually hate? :chan:

I dont think Ancelotti is hated by many people here.

Alan
06 Jan 14, 18:27
I dont think Ancelotti is hated by many people here.

Not? Then I guess Wera just trolled with me.


Ancelotti is boss. People will always hate him because he was at Milan, while I liked him even them.

wera
06 Jan 14, 18:33
For the answer just go check the old posts....

DARi0
07 Jan 14, 06:12
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18i5xw_zlatan-lavezzi-tu-fait-c_sport

Verathia
13 Jan 14, 18:49
Didn't deserve that award, tbh... Mexes was better.

Rimpel
13 Jan 14, 20:05
He was also included in the FIFpro team of the year, alongside messi and ronaldo in a 4-3-3 lineup :notbad:

Wallace
13 Jan 14, 21:20
Still not world class.

rockball
14 Jan 14, 11:15
Always the boss :shades:

alvaro
27 Jan 14, 19:42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvdzQ7uVPc

:star:

Rimpel
27 Jan 14, 19:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvdzQ7uVPc

:star:

Pretty epic for a commercial :fuckyea:

Alan
28 Jan 14, 17:21
Guess what guys, I'm able to understand what the man is saying ;)

Shark
28 Jan 14, 17:26
Guess what guys, I'm able to understand what the man is saying ;)

Well you totally deserve this epic medal:


\/
O

wera
04 Feb 14, 20:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z-vpzLf9qRY

Sweet Jebus, that's quick thinking.

Shaun
04 Feb 14, 21:01
Pure talent.

Pajo
04 Feb 14, 21:33
Still not world class :P

edit: sorry Henry, i had to :D

thatdude
04 Feb 14, 21:51
And than he scores the winner in the last minutes. What a player.

Jnr
04 Feb 14, 21:52
Ibra is a beast, scored a winner in 90' vs Nantes.

Ibra not WC Pajo? :chan:

DIN011
04 Feb 14, 21:55
inb4pointlessdiscussion

Handoyo
05 Feb 14, 04:46
Not sure about this WC debate but there is nobody in the history of the game who scores as many golazos as this guy

Fapuccino
05 Feb 14, 05:13
Worst mistake Milan made was selling the world's best CB and world's best CF for a combined 60 million. I don't know what the fuck was going through their heads? Berlusconi, a fucking billionaire, was really in desperate need of that cash, that they spent half on Ballo?

Sell anyone else but them.

Armes
05 Feb 14, 06:16
Not sure about this WC debate but there is nobody in the history of the game who scores as many golazos as this guy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LgfarODFLI

http://i.imgur.com/g6QbUSB.jpg

rockball
05 Feb 14, 06:24
I wish Ibra stayed at Inter for longer. I wish the management provided him with a better midfield. This man is pure class, and that stays. Not unlike our treble team which was an above average team but fully motivated and tactically extremely well prepared.

Ffi201zi002tlis
05 Feb 14, 10:09
Not unlike our treble team which was an above average team but fully motivated and tactically extremely well prepared.
:palm:

Above average ? Really ? Milito in treble season and Eto'o in the season later > Ibra at his peak. They lead the whole team to title just like Ibra did, but the difference is they scored against all tough oppenents, which Ibra failed badly.

Ibra can't do shit against defenders like Samuel, Vidic or Chiellini. How can he better than our treble team ?

Guney
05 Feb 14, 16:23
I thank him for helping us win the title and shit, and we got €40m + a key instrument in our treble season for this 29-year old. Don't miss this Rubentini/Bbilanista cunt though.

.h.
05 Feb 14, 16:38
:palm:

Above average ? Really ? Milito in treble season and Eto'o in the season later > Ibra at his peak. They lead the whole team to title just like Ibra did, but the difference is they scored against all tough oppenents, which Ibra failed badly.

Ibra can't do shit against defenders like Samuel, Vidic or Chiellini. How can he better than our treble team ?
++. Above average? Sneijder was the best player in the world that year, and should have won the Balon d'Or by rights. Milito was the best striker in Europe - he might not have scored the most but how fucking clinical can you be? Scored in EVERY 'final' for us - Coppa Italia, EVERY stage of the CL, and the Serie A game which won us the league.

Look at Maicon, easily the best RB in the world at that point in his career. Samuel and Lucio playing like gods...

Adriano
05 Feb 14, 17:34
if ibra went to any team other than barca in la liga, he would've dominated like he has in every situation throughout his whole career, dude is just a straight BEAST

Ffi201zi002tlis
05 Feb 14, 17:39
He dominated in most of his games, except when he faced top defenders. Remember how Vidic, Samuel, or Chiellini made him look like poor-man Borriello. :yao:

People forgot how hopeless he was when we played in CL, or when we faced declined Rube.

wera
05 Feb 14, 17:49
Milan HAD to sell Ibra and T. Silva, they had big money problems. They fucked up not selling Pato to PSG tho, they could've got almost 30 mil back then.

.h.
05 Feb 14, 18:26
if ibra went to any team other than barca in la liga, he would've dominated like he has in every situation throughout his whole career, dude is just a straight BEAST
thats the story of ibra... hypotheticals...

wicked wizard
05 Feb 14, 18:40
thats the story of ibra... hypotheticals...your obviously a Ibra hater. Every time he scores a sik goal its always, ye but this, ye but that. He's the best play in the world after messi, just accept it

.h.
05 Feb 14, 18:47
your obviously a Ibra hater. Every time he scores a sik goal its always, ye but this, ye but that. He's the best play in the world after messi, just accept it

yeah, its messi, ibra, krasic, di maria, right?

:yao:

I'm not a hater. I love him, I think he was great for us and I love having him in world football. But when the best you can say about someone starts with 'If', then it IS a hypothetical. That's a simple fact.

wera
05 Feb 14, 19:18
True on that, sir, true on that. Also people like to annoy and go against your opinion, since they know you have a strong opinion about him, which I totally understand and respect, even if I don't agree on that world class tip.

Let's go back to talk about that Barcelona season - there is a lot that went wrong. Looking at mere stats and achievements from afar, he played 46 games, scored 22 times and assisted 13 times (source: wikipedia), won UEFA Super Cup, FIFA World Club Cup, Spanish Super Cup, the La Liga (they fucked up the cup), went to CL semifinals and even got injured for 3 weeks, returned by the time of El Clasico and scored a goal. While these stats look good, you have to remember that he started really good but then later got in a fight with Guardiola, since he (Ibra) thought that some players like Pedro and Messi, got too much attention and that the main focus point was Messi....in august 2010 he said that he haven't spoken to Pep since march - and he still scored 22 times in the whole season. Pretty good, I'd say.

Ibra should not be considered a flop as a player himself at Barca, the Pep vs. Ibra thing ruined what could've been a 30+ goal season with even more success than they had. Seeing in what form he was and in what team he played - that is a minor hypotetical than IF he was in another team in La Liga. Dude really did his thing.

.h.
05 Feb 14, 19:28
But it is still hypothetical. IF he played for United, IF he played for Arsenal, IF he played for Real, IF he didnt fall out with Guardiola

For once with Ibra I'd like to see 'IF' become 'When'.

wera
05 Feb 14, 19:43
Since he never lost his form even at other clubs, it's hard to overlook the fact that he's been performing great anywhere he went. Even at Barca. That was my point - how could he be considered a flop - as a player he didn't flop.

.h.
05 Feb 14, 19:47
I disagree. A 40 million euro loss for Barcelona disagrees. Eto'o who scored 36 goals the season before - for an average of approximately 1 per 98 minutes - disagrees.

Ibra is great at carrying an average or mediocre team on his shoulders, but he has never (and now, I feel, will never) excel in a top team. I think that's also no better summed up than by his failed search for the big ears trophy - after we sold him we won it, after Barca sold him they won it. That cant be entirely coincidence.

wera
05 Feb 14, 20:01
Somehow, it is. We had a totally different team, with players like Eto'o and Sneijder accomodating our main striker, and Motta, who was great on the ball, since we really lacked that kind of players.

And at Barca, there is no doubt they were the best team in the world even in the 09/2010 season, and in the next one. Looking at how Ibra performed, he assisted Messi for the SuperCup win, he scored a brace against Arsenal that sealed the tie, he scored against Real which made Barcelona a sure winter champion at the time, both those internal problems cannot be a coincidence.

At Milan he had again the best team in the league (in my opinion), him and Cassano were deadly together. But the Serie A sucked that year, badly.

Him leaving the teams that win CL the year later is a unlucky coincidence that happened twice in a row, and mostly it has nothing to do with him. Mostly. Why are his contributions and his MVP awards he gathered along the way being ignored? The guy really did his thing. And only one team can win the CL in one season? Was Drogba never world class until he won the CL?

.h.
05 Feb 14, 20:08
No, of course not, but Drogba really carried Chelsea in some of their bigger games...

and on that note lets stop this path of the conversation now, I dont want another 5 page argument arguing with the same idiots who dont actually read what I say

wera
05 Feb 14, 20:22
Ignore the idiots and talk with me.

I'm prepared to watch the highlights of all CL games he played and every big derby he ever played. I wanna be sure if I remember him correctly. But I'm sure that the Inter team was not good enough, because you cannot just win games alone there, at least not everytime.

.h.
05 Feb 14, 20:31
.....


:yao:

:troll:

only joking



I went through the stats a few months ago. His strike rate in 'big games' is horrendous, much less than 25% if I remember correctly. When you compare that with 'big name' players like Drogba, Eto'o, etc, its a completely different figure, tbh.

Yes, I agree, CL isnt the sole metric of world class. Clearly not. But I feel like IBrahimovic is NOT the player that a team looks to in a CL final, to pull them up and win them the cup. He's not the player who you can rely on to do a big performance in a big match. He's great against lesser clubs or in lesser situations, but under pressure in a big match? Not even close.

The fanboys jizzing over his goal against England summed it up perfectly. You'd only ever see him do that in something like a friendly.. Hit me up when he does that in the CL semi finals to knock out a huge club.

wera
05 Feb 14, 20:57
I do agree he rarely did some magic by himself against bigger opposition in bigger games. I'd even go so far that the goal against Real at Barca and beating Arsenal (again at Barca) are one of his biggest moments, as far specific games go. He has good record against Inter or is that my mind deceiving me?

I'm sure that Ibra did not have a good enough team at Inter for him to succeed in CL. We were overdepended on him.

Will check how he did at other clubs, I'm serious about checking the 10minute highlights if those already existed at the time he was at Juve. I always like a bit of statistical work.

Also what is the best internet site for football stats?

.h.
05 Feb 14, 20:59
transfermarkt is quite good, I use that anyway, but to go through and work out his big match performance isnt so easy.

TBH it'd be easier to go back in this thread and find my previous post.

Also, I never expected Ibra to carry us to a CL title. Of course not, we werent a great team. But it would have been nice for him not to just be a spectator in all of our CL latter-stage matches.... I mean fuck, he could have been a water boy, he'd have had more impact.

Dylan
05 Feb 14, 21:55
https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1/1012539_417050711773800_2022560079_n.png

VLE
05 Feb 14, 22:16
His failure on Barca is on the coach. Pep tried to revive a dead strategy and failed.

The 4-2-3-1 fascination with big forward on top and AM carrying the team while 2 wingers supporting never worked.

Fergie failed with Van Nistelrooy on top with Rooney on AM.
Trap failed with Vieri on top and Totti on AM.
Same goes for Barca.

I'm sure there were more minor clubs trying out the same, but the tactic always failed.

The tactic got crushed against 2 DMs, or most of the park-the-bus strat. Ibra is a unique forward who can put some more creativity on the field, but still, couldn't help out much.

There was a 4231 tactic overhaul, starting with Rome, when coaches realized having a false nine on top was much better than a big guy roaming and waiting for the ball, and Messi is just a better player at that. Hence, Ibra got benched and returned to italy.


Ibra, while talented, is a very limited player. He needs some room to roam, he needs someone feeding him, and he needs a mobile player who can catch up to his creative-but-inaccurate passes while he distracts 2~3 players with his physique. If just one of the condition gets shut down, his usefulness drops down as well. Hence, he is just much efficient at grinding lower clubs (when his midfields let him do all) than on the losing side.

However, this also goes for every poachers, linebreakers, targets and most of the strikers out there. The difference being that they will be poachers, targets and whatever they are whether losing or winning, while Ibra can't play like himself at all when he is losing.

For that, I do now know if the blame belongs to the team or Ibra when the team loses. While he is not good at turning a losing game into a winning one, he can secure a winning game to 3 points, and that itself is a huge talent. The league is all about grinding mid-table teams and he excels in that, and he will remain as the king of the merc who won every league title with his clubs.

In short, I just wanted to point out that his usefulness will depend on what you see as important in a striker. Some create chances and some use them, and Ibra needs a team creating it for him. However, he will thrive on it more than anyone if the chances are out there.

Alan
06 Feb 14, 00:02
Dude, did you miss the Sweden - Portugal game? Okey, they lost the game but I think scoring them goals was good even though SWEDISH defence is fucking shit, seriously SHIT.

.h.
06 Feb 14, 00:37
oh ok sorry, one game changes a history of failure

my bad

:oblivious:


and this is why i didnt want to get into this discussion yet again.... he's an exceptional player, i love having him in world football, but he isnt a world class player. he isnt a leader, he will go down in history as a big game flop, a failure, and ultimately someone whose career didnt fulfill the potential that it SHOULD have managed. We'll be arguing that it was Guardiola, it was Allegri, it was whatever-the-fuck-else. But ultimately, he won't have delivered, and no argument will ever change that simple fact.

That's all I have to say on the Zlatan Ibrahimovic front. Until he has a couple of stellar top seasons in the Champions League where he carries PSG (or whoever) and acts like a real LEADER in the biggest matches, my mind won't be changed either. You're welcome to disagree, I honestly don't care :)


edit;

And to be honest, I think it's simply disgusting to compare him to someone like Diego Milito. Maybe Milito hasnt had the overall consistency over his entire career (but then neither did Ibra) - nor did he get to the highest heights of the game until very late, and he didnt stay there very long, but Milito was a fucking world class striker, he scored in EVERY STAGE of the CL for us, the coppa italia final, and the scudetto-winning match. Zlatan cant even fucking come close to that, he scored like 2 goals? in 16 knock out legs for Inter, or something ridiculous like that. Milito's twice the fucking striker Zlatan is.

Handoyo
06 Feb 14, 04:26
I think the Ibra debate with browha should be PRECEDED by another debate: Do you need to excel in CL/big games in order to be considered world class?

Because Ibra is definitely not world class if you consider those factors. BUT, if you define world class in another way, and that is, it's ok to bottle big games as long as you did fine in a massive majority of the small games, then Ibra is world class because he just destroys minor teams.

38 league games
You bottle 8 big games
You still have 30 games against 'small teams'
Means 90 points AKA almost automatic league title

I personally consider him world class even if he flops in Barcelona, and even if he flops in most big games. But his consistency against the smaller teams, and how he wins domestic league titles in almost every single fucking season that he plays (Milan 11/12 is the only example that comes to mind when he didn't win) is enough justification for me.

I4E
06 Feb 14, 05:47
Of course Ibra is a 'World Class' player. It's an absolute crime to suggest otherwise. I think people get too carried away by judging a player based on IF he wins CL medals or just how many trophies he's won. History is littered with 'great players' that didn't win many trophies, and because of this you simply cannot take away the fact that they were/are great WORLD CLASS players.

Quite simply, there are ~200+ million registered footballers ranging from junior amateur to senior professional level across the whole world. What we see in the top leagues and international level barely makes up .05% of these players (if that). Then when you continue to sift through that remaining number, you are left with the 1000's of professionals that play at the 'top 4' leagues in the world.

To be good enough to even be a 'squad' player for a team in the top 4 leagues is an extremely remarkable achievement in itself, let alone being a regular starter. But when you continue to breakdown the numbers further, and find players that have incredible ability to perform at a level that stands them out amongst the others, then you are a WORLD CLASS player.

The best 30, 40 or 50+ players that are playing across the TOP clubs in Europe (Barca, Bayern, R.Madrid, Man U, Juve etc etc) are ALL WORLD CLASS PLAYERS ! they sifted themselves out from the millions of footballers in the world to be chosen/selected/developed to play at the BEST with the BEST.

To say Ibra isn't world class but Ronaldo is, is just differentiating which one is better than the other. But it doesn't make one world class and the other just 'a really good footballer' !

Fapuccino
06 Feb 14, 05:48
Lmao are people still going on about this? Ibra not world class??? IBRA???? ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS????

He's the best fucking #9 in the world. Yes better than Cavani, Falcao, Costa, RVP, or whomever.

Rimpel
06 Feb 14, 07:17
Lmao are people still going on about this? Ibra not world class??? IBRA???? ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS????

He's the best fucking #9 in the world. Yes better than Cavani, Falcao, Costa, RVP, or whomever.

Indeed

rockball
06 Feb 14, 07:20
#Gay4Ibra

#Ibra4Life

#ZlatanIsGod

no homo.

qb4ever_2k
06 Feb 14, 07:33
Lmao are people still going on about this? Ibra not world class??? IBRA???? ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS????

He's the best fucking #9 in the world. Yes better than Cavani, Falcao, Costa, RVP, or whomever.

Nope, Luis Suarez.

Kakaroto
06 Feb 14, 07:36
Luis Suarez is a number 7......

I4E
06 Feb 14, 07:45
:lol: so who's the best number 16 or 21 or 11 or 34 or...

wera
06 Feb 14, 09:50
And the cycle continues...

Rimpel
06 Feb 14, 09:55
Nope, Luis Suarez.

Debatable, if people are going to use the "Ibra disappears in big games"-argument (which definitely is not the case anymore) then Suarez is worse against big teams in the PL.

.h.
06 Feb 14, 09:58
And the cycle continues...
see why i didnt want to do this? :D

Ffi201zi002tlis
06 Feb 14, 10:07
Who started this debate again ? Ban him.

.h.
06 Feb 14, 10:10
Who started this debate again ? Ban him.

....

you

:yao:


:palm:

Above average ? Really ? Milito in treble season and Eto'o in the season later > Ibra at his peak. They lead the whole team to title just like Ibra did, but the difference is they scored against all tough oppenents, which Ibra failed badly.

Ibra can't do shit against defenders like Samuel, Vidic or Chiellini. How can he better than our treble team ?

- - - Updated - - -

or was that the joke?

Ffi201zi002tlis
06 Feb 14, 10:34
:yao:

But I was serious. :oblivious:

qb4ever_2k
06 Feb 14, 12:09
Debatable, if people are going to use the "Ibra disappears in big games"-argument (which definitely is not the case anymore) then Suarez is worse against big teams in the PL.

Last big team Liverpool faced was Chelsea and he was great in that match. I don't know what big teams you were talking about.

wera
06 Feb 14, 12:51
Yeah, even if he didn't score, he still had a great game. It's obvious Chelsea has a better team tho.

Devious
06 Feb 14, 12:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9m7m8_2t4Y

Never gets old :D

wera
06 Feb 14, 14:36
I am Zlat'n

Rimpel
06 Feb 14, 19:29
Last big team Liverpool faced was Chelsea and he was great in that match. I don't know what big teams you were talking about.
Huh? Scoreless and Liverpool lost, if you call that great I'd love to know how you define a decent/bad game:trolldad:

- - - Updated - - -



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9m7m8_2t4Y

Never gets old :D

lmao

Alan
07 Feb 14, 14:20
Real conversation:

Pep: ......

Ibra: GET SOME FREAKING CAJONES AND TALK TO ME!

ScottishInterista
08 Feb 14, 17:10
Debatable, if people are going to use the "Ibra disappears in big games"-argument (which definitely is not the case anymore) then Suarez is worse against big teams in the PL.

He done fantastic vs Arsenal today

monster09
08 Feb 14, 17:24
:lol: so who's the best number 16 or 21 or 11 or 34 or...

At least 21 is Lucas Leiva and 34 is Martin Kelly.

16 and 11: NA.

JJM
11 Feb 14, 18:53
766 pages...the most discussed player on fif...The one of the main reasons we won 2 scudetti...one of the most influental players...talent wise(Meazza,Matthaus,Mazzola,Suarez) that put an Inter jersey on and he is not in LGI. He wanted a new challenge at Farca...ok I was mad when he went to Bbilan but he was at fu Rube and he joined us...some were just butthurt he wanted to leave us after doing so great...he is the type that wants to win everywhere like Mou...not an one team player like JZ,Totti,Del Piero,Lampard,StevieG(those are rare nowadays!).

I'm not saying he is LGI material because he wasn't that true to our colors but...

If Branca deserves LGI then this guy does to.He has done a lot.Way more than Figo(sorry Lfap),Djorkaeff,Zamorano...but those respected our jersey more and didn't pointed their balls to the curva and said suck it.

SO
I think we should have a new section besides LGI,former players.I would call it notable players or smth like that...

example:

LGI for Angelo Moratti,MM,Mazzolla,Fachetti,JZ(when he gets there),Matthaus,Suarez,Cordoba,Matrix,Mou...
notable players and coaches: Zlatan,Motta,Branca,Figo,Djorkaeff,Ronaldo,Zamoran o,Crespo,Cruz,Martins...even Chivu
and former players who floped or were average:Quaresma,Muntari,Mancini,Gresko,Vampeta,Wo me...

would be better no?!what ya all say to that?!

Miles
11 Feb 14, 18:57
3349

I find this picture disturbing :pokerface:

Verathia
11 Feb 14, 19:15
766 pages...the most discussed player on fif...The one of the main reasons we won 2 scudetti...one of the most influental players...talent wise(Meazza,Matthaus,Mazzola,Suarez) that put an Inter jersey on and he is not in LGI. He wanted a new challenge at Farca...ok I was mad when he went to Bbilan but he was at fu Rube and he joined us...some were just butthurt he wanted to leave us after doing so great...he is the type that wants to win everywhere like Mou...not an one team player like JZ,Totti,Del Piero,Lampard,StevieG(those are rare nowadays!).

I'm not saying he is LGI material because he wasn't that true to our colors but...

If Branca deserves LGI then this guy does to.He has done a lot.Way more than Figo(sorry Lfap),Djorkaeff,Zamorano...but those respected our jersey more and didn't pointed their balls to the curva and said suck it.

SO
I think we should have a new section besides LGI,former players.I would call it notable players or smth like that...

example:

LGI for Angelo Moratti,MM,Mazzolla,Fachetti,JZ(when he gets there),Matthaus,Suarez,Cordoba,Matrix,Mou...
notable players and coaches: Zlatan,Motta,Branca,Figo,Djorkaeff,Ronaldo,Zamoran o,Crespo,Cruz,Martins...even Chivu
and former players who floped or were average:Quaresma,Muntari,Mancini,Gresko,Vampeta,Wo me...

would be better no?!what ya all say to that?!
How about a section for giant glory hunting dbags.

IRR26
11 Feb 14, 19:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9m7m8_2t4Y

Never gets old :D

Always :lol: when he says Messay is shiit.

wera
18 Feb 14, 20:46
http://i.imgur.com/MqbBMDh.gif

Ibra is having an amazing game yet again.

Rimpel
18 Feb 14, 20:48
What an amazing season he's had so far.

nerazzurri4life
18 Feb 14, 20:58
:browhalogic:
















:trollol:

monster09
18 Feb 14, 21:03
I think 10 goals in his last 5 CL games and 10 goals our of 15 goals PSG scored in CL.

I4E
18 Feb 14, 21:08
#ibrahimovic #worldclass... now trending

Hasan
18 Feb 14, 21:10
He is the best striker in the world ...

Ronaldo
18 Feb 14, 21:30
http://i.imgur.com/MqbBMDh.gif

Ibra is having an amazing game yet again.

And that was with his weak leg!

He is amazing!

.h.
18 Feb 14, 21:30
so we come back to the fan boys who love him because of two goals (1 penalty) against a team who got knocked out in the round of 32 in the Europa League last year. HOMIGAWD HE MUST BE AMAZING.


Yes, he's probably the closest he's ever been to world class, but much like his england goals, I'd like to see him do that in a match against Barca, Real, Dortmund, Bayern, (etc) before I join the long list of fanboys who want to suck him off. I've never disputed his quality in matches against lesser teams like this - only in the big games where people rely on him to make the difference.....


simple as that, tbh, and that's all I have to say on the subject matter. I really hope he does get through to the latter stages of the CL and puts in a good performance against big clubs. I'd love it. I love Zlatan, I think he's a great striker. But I just think something is missing from his skillset which allows him to play in those big games at his normal level, and I dont think you can be world class if you dont deliver on those levels.

Jane The Virgin
18 Feb 14, 21:54
He is the best striker in the world ...

...and still not world class. words said by browha himself

:awwyeah:

Wallace
18 Feb 14, 22:07
Might not be world class, but must be one of the best center forward in the world if not the best.

.h.
18 Feb 14, 22:23
Like I said, how people can call someone world class who consistently fails to deliver in big games is beyond me.

He's world class if you only look at friendlies and games against shit teams, sure. But so are many players.... To be world class you have to deliver on the HIGHEST levels. And Zlatan has never ever done that. Simple as that.

wera
18 Feb 14, 22:37
And we've been over that too. Ever since he's been out of Inter, he's been better and better, and I've seen him score OR just really playing good in a number of big games. Barca - Arsenal, Barca - Real, Milan - Inter, PSG - Barca, Portugal - Sweden and other games too. He is one of the best, if not the best strikers on the planet. We know he won't ever win the Euro/WC with Sweden, but otherwise, he's been unlucky with the clubs, just like Totti (who has almost no club title).

He's dominant, strong and scores a big ammount of goals. Spectacular and the not spectacular ones. I know a World Class Striker when I see one.

.h.
18 Feb 14, 23:03
Like I said, talk to me when he's consistently delivering in top games. Big whoop scoring for Milan against Inter, we suck balls. Awful players look world class against us. For Milan against Juventus he's 1 in 3 (for example).
Last year in the CL, no goals against Valencia, and 1 in 2 vs Barca.


I want to see what he does in the big matches this year. If he carries the team as a world class player should - against someone like Bayern or whatever - then we can talk.. but until that day has happened - and it hasnt happened in his career yet - there's nothing to talk about.

wicked wizard
18 Feb 14, 23:17
Like I said, talk to me when he's consistently delivering in top games. Big whoop scoring for Milan against Inter, we suck balls. Awful players look world class against us. For Milan against Juventus he's 1 in 3 (for example).
Last year in the CL, no goals against Valencia, and 1 in 2 vs Barca.


I want to see what he does in the big matches this year. If he carries the team as a world class player should - against someone like Bayern or whatever - then we can talk.. but until that day has happened - and it hasnt happened in his career yet - there's nothing to talk about.and when as players like ronaldo "carried" his team against teams like Bayern, despite playing for one of the top 3 teams in the world.

Wallace
18 Feb 14, 23:19
and when as players like ronaldo "carried" his team against teams like Bayern, despite playing for one of the top 3 teams in the world.

Bear in mind, he never said Ronaldo is a world class player.

wicked wizard
18 Feb 14, 23:24
Bear in mind, he never said Ronaldo is a world class player.ermm he said ronaldo and messi are world class and ibrh below them

Alan
18 Feb 14, 23:35
Like I said, talk to me when he's consistently delivering in top games. Big whoop scoring for Milan against Inter, we suck balls. Awful players look world class against us. For Milan against Juventus he's 1 in 3 (for example).
Last year in the CL, no goals against Valencia, and 1 in 2 vs Barca.


I want to see what he does in the big matches this year. If he carries the team as a world class player should - against someone like Bayern or whatever - then we can talk.. but until that day has happened - and it hasnt happened in his career yet - there's nothing to talk about.

Portugal game? He was Zlatan vs Portugal. Not bad scoring those goals by your self...

When playing for Barcelona and scored the goal against RM?

Are you retarded or should I come with more examples? But maybe according to you I AM the big retard here who thinks that Real Madrid is a big club?

Fapuccino
18 Feb 14, 23:42
Lmao Browha just give it up man, dont be like pencilpal.

As I said before, if Ibra turned up in "big games" he would be one of the best players of all time, not just in the world.

Imo only 3 pure #9s are world class. Ibra, Falcao, Cavani. RVP was for that one season, but no more. Diego Costa is getting close but he's going to have to repeat his performances for more than a year.

I4E
18 Feb 14, 23:49
Poll added

Universe
18 Feb 14, 23:54
add a 3rd option: "what is world class?"

wera
19 Feb 14, 00:02
Falcao was worse this season because he doesn't have a team like Atletico behind him.
Suarez & Sturridge are great this season, but even they are not consistent. Nobody just scores from every chance they get.

Even Messi apart from the penalty (+how it came to it), did nothing today, but pass the ball around. Are we going to take the world class title from him anytime soon? There are a bunch of other games too where he did almost nothing, especially since he got injured.

Ibra played two really good games against Barcelona last year, but I guess now you'll say they were out of form or something like that. I don't think PSG is as good as Real or Bayern, but I'm sure, that in this form, he can perform, goals or not. He has done it before.


And nobody scores in every big game, especially if you're the focal point of the attack, the target man, they man mark you more closely, if you're one of the best around, like Ibra is. I think he's been showing his world class since he left Inter. So if PSG wins the CL this year, you'll say this is his first world class season. Shiiiiiiiiieeeet. I need to stop visiting this part of the forum.

Wallace
19 Feb 14, 00:05
Wera, played good doesn't mean anything to browha.

He is completely subjective and only looks at what was delivered, a direct assist or a goal.

Fapuccino
19 Feb 14, 00:07
Browha gets as much popular support for his Ibrahimovic not world class debate, as I do with Serie A > EPL arguments.

I4E
19 Feb 14, 00:09
add a 3rd option: "what is world class?"

World class -

1. Ranking among the foremost in the world; of an international standard of excellence; of the highest order.

2. Of or denoting someone with a skill or attribute that puts him or her in the highest class in the world.

3. Ranked among the world's best; of the highest calibre.

... And yet somehow Ibrahimovic doesn't fit under any of these definitions ???

.h.
19 Feb 14, 00:20
everyone keeps telling me how good ibrahimovic is

yet where did he come this year in the ballon d'or, for example? He had less than a quarter of the votes that the person who came 3rd did. The year before, he was 10th. Before that he didnt even make the list - with players like Benzema, Nani (!!!!!) and Abidal ahead of him on the list.

Like I've said a hundred times, this is the closest Ibrahimovic has ever been to 'the best in the world' in his entire career.

And he's still a cut behind the absolute best.



Maybe 2014 is the year that will change, we'll see. But his performances so far are meaningless to me. It's when the games get difficult, the level of the opposition is better than Europa League Last 32, and you're playing against a team who [exaggeration, not fact checking this] make more money than Ibrahimovic pre-tax, then we can talk. Because so far, most of his "big game deliveries" have been against mice, and not men.


It's simple. World class players deliver in world class games. Ibrahimovic was *indisputably* a failure in these until ~2011/2012 (ISH, dont you fucking retarded fanboys take that literally). Since then he's come a LONG way and credit to him for that. But he's still yet to consistently carry a team in the big matches the same way Ronaldo, or Messi, or Ribery does.

protip: NO THAT DOESNT MEAN I EXPECT THEM TO SCORE A HAT TRICK EVERY SINGLE GAME YOU DUMB FUCKS. BUT THERES AN ATTITUDE DIFFERENCE. PEOPLE LOOK TO THEM AS LEADERS OF THE TEAM, WHEN THINGS GO TOUGH THEY ARE THE PLAYERS EXPECTED TO DELIVER. IBRA IS FINALLY STARTING TO FILL THAT MANTELPIECE AT PSG, BUT HE ISNT QUITE THERE YET.

Anyway, thats the last I have to say on this. continue throwing semen at each other and praising your god like children with no critical thinking capacity. Fucking bukkake going on in here.

JJM
19 Feb 14, 00:23
the results so far in the poll are shocking...absolutely sensational :yao:

Fapuccino
19 Feb 14, 00:26
fuck you wallace for voting no

Universe
19 Feb 14, 00:26
Look. I totally get what browha is saying. I completely understand and I'm sympathetic to his belief. What swings it for me though, is simply the sheer rapishness of Ibra in general. Yea, he's never won the Champions League. Plenty of great players never won the champions league either. Yes, perhaps he hasn't been as dominant in the majority of big matches he's played. But he's a proven winner, I think the only player to have won 8/9 league titles consecutively. That's insane. His immense contribution to these league wins is mainly what swings it for me, and the enormous talent, clearly and plainly visible in his technique and execution is a contributing factor too.

Hope he wins the CL this year and rapes all the big teams along the way so we can never argue about this again :yao:

IRR26
19 Feb 14, 00:29
Wallace you ruined it. :lol:

It was suppose to be only Browha who votes no.

Ok maybe you can represent Browha who probably won't give his vote.

youth projector
19 Feb 14, 00:30
Barantokanosu

He is better than palacio.

.h.
19 Feb 14, 00:32
Look. I totally get what browha is saying. I completely understand and I'm sympathetic to his belief. What swings it for me though, is simply the sheer rapishness of Ibra in general. Yea, he's never won the Champions League. Plenty of great players never won the champions league either. Yes, perhaps he hasn't been as dominant in the majority of big matches he's played. But he's a proven winner, I think the only player to have won 8/9 league titles consecutively. That's insane. His immense contribution to these league wins is mainly what swings it for me, and the enormous talent, clearly and plainly visible in his technique and execution is a contributing factor too.

Hope he wins the CL this year and rapes all the big teams along the way so we can never argue about this again :yao:

maybe one more tiny post

:yao:

If he helped to carry PSG to the latter stages of the CL and everything, then yes I'd really reconsider my position. But the last 2 years are the only seasons in which Ibrahimovic even comes CLOSE to "world class". People saying he was "world class" at Inter [for example] are simply retarded. Indisputably not even close. The problem is that he does some exceptional things against smaller teams - but when it comes to the bigger teams he never does them. When was the last time he scored an England-style lob in a game that actually mattered? Or a back-heeler in a huge match? He's a big game bottler, always has been. He's LESS so of one now, but still not quite there.

And re:talent and so on, I fully agree. He's probably the most talented footballer in the world today. But I'm concerned with professional players, not the Krasic>Bale, Di Maria>Ronaldo bullshit that Wicked Wizard does. I'm concerned with what someone does - it doesn't really matter how they do it. And from that perspective, Zlatan is wanting when compared to some of the biggest names. I dont think Zlatan will ever, for example, reach the heights of Milito in 09/10 - scoring in every CL knock out stage & the coppa italia final & the brace to win the league.



The ohter angle is... at what point is 'too small' a hinderence? Lets say he was playing in the conference and scored 50 goals a game? Would that make him world class? Clearly not. If you take what Zlatan does already and put it in the top matches he plays in, he would be world class. But for whatever reason, big fish small pond, big game bottler, whatever you want to call it, he's always had a mental block in transferring that talent. I dont think anyone reasonable will argue with that - the argument is more focused on whether or not you can be world class without having done that. And I have to say, you're not world class unless you perform in the world class matches.


My 2 cents, and definitely my last post in this thread about this topic.

Pimpin
19 Feb 14, 00:40
browha is a smart motherfucker, dude can make a case about how schelotti is world class how he scored against milan, inter and other big teams when his team needed him

wicked wizard
19 Feb 14, 00:44
I hate that term "carries a team" no footballer does its a team sport ffs, they are 10 other ppl playing as well.

Fitzy
19 Feb 14, 01:26
The question is not whether he is world class, but whether he is browha class.

Wallace
19 Feb 14, 01:38
browha is a smart motherfucker, dude can make a case about how schelotti is world class how he scored against milan, inter and other big teams when his team needed him

I think you mistook me as browha.

kido
19 Feb 14, 02:09
Ibra's not a world class, cuz he's never won CL, World Cup, UEFA Cup, FA Cup, Cup Winner's Cup, Copa Libertadores Cup...
That's so obvious!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Jane The Virgin
19 Feb 14, 04:22
with all due respect to browha, i think that its retarded for the rest of the members to argue with one member over something that everyone says its A and the other member says its B.

science says b is wrong.


i just dont get why people keep arguing with browha... the dude said himself that ibra is the best striker in the world but it is not world class... i mean, what else u want him to say? "ok i admit that i was wrong" <-- this?

some people take internet ego way to seriously, browha sorry dude, but you're one of them, just because u're an older member and use capital letters here and there u get by without pencipal treatment or the "devil cooker" one... if it is up to me, you're right there with them when it comes to ibra...

shadowmoon
19 Feb 14, 04:30
well, some people think zlatan isn't worldclass just because he has never won the CL yet. if that's the case, then ronaldo (the brazilian one) and roberto baggio was never worldclass as well. and this also means that milan baros is a better player than zlatan. why? because he won the CL, therefore he's worldclass.

well, at least it's better than some prem faces who think that messi will never be a worldclass player until he wins the EPL, the toughest league in the world. :lol:

Fapuccino
19 Feb 14, 05:29
Muntari won the CL with inter, scored against barcelona with Milan in knockouts. Always shown up in big games.

#worldclass

Hasan
19 Feb 14, 06:24
Thank you Zlatan "Il Genio" Ibrahimović ... It was realy joy to watch you play all this years.

Screamers with both legs, headers, tap ins, backheals, overhead kicks, scorpion kicks, driblings, fights, arogance ... KING!

francesco
19 Feb 14, 06:33
remember, orlandoni have more champions league title than ibrahimovic :trollol:

Rimpel
19 Feb 14, 06:36
Lmao dat poll, haters :D

rfU
19 Feb 14, 07:16
Lets keep it simple: WC = player who performs at a consistently high-level vs top tier teams, see Baggio, Ronaldo, Maradona, Messi, Eto'o, Figo. Ibra consistently flops in must win games when the spot light is on him. It's some sort of mental block that sees him shy away from taking the reigns and taking charge (which he is fully capable of doing) when his team needs him most. WC players thrive on the responsibility, on the reliance. Ibra doesn't. Three times we went up against him when he was at Barca, and he flopped three times!!

Lets see Ibra in the next round (I'm assuming Bayer won't make overturn a 4-0 loss away).

rockball
19 Feb 14, 07:23
http://i.imgur.com/MqbBMDh.gif

Ibra is having an amazing game yet again.

Mamma mia :drool: And with his left foot.

Come one Thohir, spend a ton on wages and just get Simeone and Ibrahimovic. We can get rid of Kuzmanovic, Alvarez, Mudingayi, Mariga, Cambiasso, Zanetti, Milito, Samuel, Ranocchia, Schelotto, Andreolli for it.

wera
19 Feb 14, 07:37
^^^^^^Don't over-do it, I'm sure we could get some other, younger class forward.

Just when I thought browha is just being a dick to Ibra, I read the other posts he wrote after I went to sleep, and to some degree I totally agree with that. And then other people come and ruin it, him winning the CL is not the (main) issue here and Ibra was never World Class at Inter, but he never had a team like Milito had behind him, or the team he had at Barca or PSG

browha, I liked our debate, as always, but I would be like :chan: too if other people didn't understood what I was saying. It's unfair that people start mentioning you everytime Ibra scores. Keep fighting, bro

dynasty27
19 Feb 14, 09:38
Not WC, but LGI.

.h.
19 Feb 14, 10:54
Lets keep it simple: WC = player who performs at a consistently high-level vs top tier teams, see Baggio, Ronaldo, Maradona, Messi, Eto'o, Figo. Ibra consistently flops in must win games when the spot light is on him. It's some sort of mental block that sees him shy away from taking the reigns and taking charge (which he is fully capable of doing) when his team needs him most. WC players thrive on the responsibility, on the reliance. Ibra doesn't. Three times we went up against him when he was at Barca, and he flopped three times!!

Lets see Ibra in the next round (I'm assuming Bayer won't make overturn a 4-0 loss away).

.


The ronaldo example is an interesting one. He's never won a CL title - though many top players haven't, and I've never once used that as a criteria... but look at how he carried Real against a pretty damn good United team in the CL in 2003? Or the things he did at Inter? Ronaldo always was at least partially a case of unfulfilled potential, too, because of his fucking injuries. But when he was on form, he was clearly the best striker in the world. Just unfortunately had so many injury problems that limited the impact he actually would have in football. And given that his career was probably 70% of what it should have been? Just from injuries rather than getting drunk and shit all the time? He's still probably one of the best going.

- - - Updated - - -


with all due respect to browha, i think that its retarded for the rest of the members to argue with one member over something that everyone says its A and the other member says its B.

science says b is wrong.


i just dont get why people keep arguing with browha... the dude said himself that ibra is the best striker in the world but it is not world class... i mean, what else u want him to say? "ok i admit that i was wrong" <-- this?

some people take internet ego way to seriously, browha sorry dude, but you're one of them, just because u're an older member and use capital letters here and there u get by without pencipal treatment or the "devil cooker" one... if it is up to me, you're right there with them when it comes to ibra...

If it wasn't for the fact that people keep calling me out on it every time Ibrahimovic scores a fucking goal, I wouldn't be so bothered. But there are certain fanboys who jizz themselves everytime Ibra scores a goal - no matter what the match.

The fact that 95% of the Ibra fanboys don't understand what I'm saying (whether they agree or not) and make bullshit up like "Oh haha but Ronaldo never won a CL title" despite the fact that I've never once used that as an argument really pisses me off.

If we had a mature discussion, there was a mutual understanding of each other's position (if not agreement at least), then it'd be fine. But no, people arrogantly assume what my arguments are and don't bother actually considering my perspective. Which is fine, I dont care. But then they want to call me out on it. That's where I get pissed off.


Protip: Just because everyone says one thing is correct and there's only a small dissenting voice, does NOT mean that A is correct. The history of science tells us generally the dissenting voice is correct ;) however, that's a whole different issue....

Science, however, is not a popularity contest. And consensus opinion is irrelevant :)

Handoyo
19 Feb 14, 11:14
Ronaldo is a world class cunt

Rimpel
19 Feb 14, 15:11
It's settled, Ibra is world class. Close this thread:yao:

Adriano
19 Feb 14, 15:32
i want ibra to win CL this year

kido
19 Feb 14, 19:42
I also think Ibra's not a world class. He's just an European class.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

rfU
20 Feb 14, 05:49
Contrast with Thomas Muller who scores in almost all big games. He's not some flashy so-and-so with nifty tricks and flicks, he scores, when it matters, nothing phases him.

Again, lets see what happens next round.

Wallace
20 Feb 14, 05:55
I also think Ibra's not a world class. He's just an European class.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

You mean continental class.

Unfortunately a lot of our players seems to be economy class.

Hasan
20 Feb 14, 06:15
Contrast with Thomas Muller who scores in almost all big games. He's not some flashy so-and-so with nifty tricks and flicks, he scores, when it matters, nothing phases him.

Lol, give him key role in untalented Milan or untalented Inter squads and we will see ...

rfU
20 Feb 14, 15:47
Lol, give him key role in untalented Milan or untalented Inter squads and we will see ...haha yeah, give Ibra a role in a talented team like Barca and se what happens? Ibra is undoubtely more talented than Muller, no one is disputing that. But who's more of a clutch player?

.h.
20 Feb 14, 15:55
haha yeah, give Ibra a role in a talented team like Barca and se what happens? Ibra is undoubtely more talented than Muller, no one is disputing that. But who's more of a clutch player?

this.

No one is disputing the TALENT of Ibrahimovic. Just the mentality and big game deliverance.

For me it is straight forward. A world class player performs in world class matches. I have yet to see Ibra do that consistently enough to give him the title of world class player. This season is the closest that has ever come to changing.

It is not about :wicked wizard: talent or anything like that. It's about professional football.

IRR26
20 Feb 14, 16:14
this.

No one is disputing the TALENT of Ibrahimovic. Just the mentality and big game deliverance.

For me it is straight forward. A world class player performs in world class matches. I have yet to see Ibra do that consistently enough to give him the title of world class player. This season is the closest that has ever come to changing.

It is not about :wicked wizard: talent or anything like that. It's about professional football.

I don't know if you have answered this already but who do you consider as WC?

IMO only Messi is clearly above Zlatan and you can also argue that Messi wouldn't be nothing without his teammates in Barca or Messi hasn't been able to win anything for Argentina.

If you don't consider the age then I would definately take Zlatan over C.Ronaldo to my team. Zlatan is million times more team player than Ronaldo who is completely and purely individual athlete and football is a team sport. What Zlatan did in Milan was incredible he lifted the whole attack with his presence. Zlatan has very good vision and passing when it come to braking defences.

And I don't even like Zlatan. Pretty much hate his personality but I need to be honest with his talent and qualities.

wera
20 Feb 14, 16:42
rfU, Ibra had a fucking good season at Barca, you said that like he did a 'Forlan' there

Adriano
20 Feb 14, 16:43
ibra for ballon d'or!

Bergpavian
20 Feb 14, 17:23
When I look at aaall the arguments about Zlatan not being world class - then I have to say Baggio also never has been world class.

Alan
20 Feb 14, 19:57
When I look at aaall the arguments about Zlatan not being world class - then I have to say Baggio also never has been world class.

BTW Who is that Maradona guy?

Rimpel
20 Feb 14, 20:19
People who say he's not world class are clearly in the minority. So why keep arguing over soooo many pages when you're just going around in circles at this point peeps? Time to agree to disagree :work:

rfU
21 Feb 14, 06:45
rfU, Ibra had a fucking good season at Barca, you said that like he did a 'Forlan' thereno one's saying he sucked. but then again he wasn't exactly good value for money. All I'm saying is when he went up against us, a team he knew inside out, he sucked, like so bad he was subbed off after 60-70 minutes on all occasions. You don't sub off WC players with 30 minutes to go in UCL unless they're injured.

This is when Ibra performs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh7-sLrhIYs

In a friendly. Meanwhile, here's C Ronaldo performing when it matters, UCL knockout match @ 3:00. See the difference?


When I look at aaall the arguments about Zlatan not being world class - then I have to say Baggio also never has been world class.the same baggio who scored a twice vs Real Madrid (defending champions) in a must win UCL game? That Baggio? Did you watch the 1994 world cup? Carried an insipid Italy on his own. Scored the winner in all knockout games leading up to the final. Ibra isn't even close.

I4E
21 Feb 14, 06:48
I think there was an element of sarcasm in Bergpavian's post there rfU

Wallace
21 Feb 14, 07:02
Or he might be talking about Dino Baggio, or Eddie Baggio :work:

shadowmoon
21 Feb 14, 07:42
the same baggio who scored a twice vs Real Madrid (defending champions) in a must win UCL game? That Baggio? Did you not watch the 1994 world cup? Carried an insipid Italy on his own. Scored the winner in all knockout games leading up to the final. Ibra isn't even close.

but it's not like baggio won the UCL with inter that season, despite scoring twice against real madrid. yeah, those were important goals, but not that important. he didn't do much in the quarter-finals against man utd (played good maybe, but not decisive), though. don't get me wrong. baggio IS worldclass. but it's a shame that we never got to see that DECISIVE display/goal/moment by baggio that could win him some big honours during his career. sometimes, showing a brilliant quality display consistently is not enough because people tend to remember winners and goalscorers. i mean, people still remember wiltord's and trezeguet's goals in euro 2000 final, thus labeling them as 'big game' players. but were they worldclass? well, up to you to decide. maybe trezeguet was, not sure about wiltord, though. whatever, it doesn't really matter.

the same can be said about ibra. just like baggio, he also has had his moments in some big games, scoring a brace against arsenal during his spell at barca, showing an instrumental display against arsenal during his milan spell, scoring the winner in the el classico, scoring and showing a good display many times in the milan derby, etc. but it's a shame that he has yet to be that decisive in guiding his team to win some big honours (think of UCL, world cup), just like baggio.

btw, i rate ibra's 2 goals against parma that won us the scudetto in 07/08 as more important than any goal that baggio scored in his career. those were actually decisive, important, badly-needed goals. now, we can only hope that he'll be able reproduce that kind of display in a UCL final, thus putting this debate to an end.

rfU
21 Feb 14, 10:37
the same can be said about ibra. just like baggio, he also has had his moments in some big games, scoring a brace against arsenal during his spell at barca, showing an instrumental display against arsenal during his milan spell, scoring the winner in the el classico, scoring and showing a good display many times in the milan derby, etc. but it's a shame that he has yet to be that decisive in guiding his team to win some big honours (think of UCL, world cup), just like baggio.


I'll give you the arsenal game although in the following round he was back to his old self (vs Barca no less)... The Parma game definitely. But then list that against games versus Man Utd (previously mentioned), Liverpool, Juventus, etc, that list is endless. Nevermind the goals but influence... for such a talented player, I mean, he has it all, technique, strength, ball control, passing, shooting, pace, creativity, flair, like LeBron James, Ibra has the tools to be among the best of all time, even surpass them but when he's counted on most, or when Messi or Ronaldo are anywhere near him, he'll duck and hide, refusing to take charge and influence the match.

Baggio on the other hand took any challenge thrown at him, whether Zola, Del Piero, Saachi, Lippi, capello, injuries, pace of the game, 1994 penalty miss, nothing phased him. Also note Baggio shone brightest in the 90s when Serie A was THE league... Not the walk around Ibra thrived in (comparatively speaking).

Why isn't Ibrahimovic in LGI by the way? Guess I didn't get the memo on that one. First Cruz now Ibra *smh*


i rate ibra's 2 goals against parma that won us the scudetto in 07/08 as more important than any goal that baggio scored in his career.as an inter fan I have to concur, but that can't possibly compare to single-handedly dragging Italy to a world cup final.

.h.
21 Feb 14, 10:43
As you say, the list of games he's flopped in is quite lengthy. For someone of his talent, technique, goalscoring record, etc, it SHOULD be the other way around.

Ffi201zi002tlis
21 Feb 14, 14:02
And top class defenders (in-form Chiellini, prime Samuel/Vidic) treated him like a kid. Even Icardi can be more dangerous against those guys than Ibra.

He managed to score against us when he played for Bbilan, but at that time we played with declined Lucio or even Matrix. And in his last game against us, he scored 2, but then Milito scored 4, just to show poor Ibra what world class striker should be :troll:

Remember our game against M.U in CL, or against average Rubentus ? All of us expected him to do something, but then he turned to our most useless player on the field :yao:

.h.
21 Feb 14, 14:11
and that is why for me, sadly, ibra is not a world class player. He doesnt show up for the world class games.

Like I said, he's on a different level now than when he was at Inter, Barca, and probably even Milan. But he hasnt been tested enough at the top level in his new level for me to decide if he's the best of the rest, or actually a genuine contender for a world class label.

Bring on the next round, I hope he gets a hard opponent, and to be brutally honest, I hope he succeeds. It'd finally put this argument to rest...!

wera
21 Feb 14, 16:23
As you say, the list of games he's flopped in is quite lengthy. For someone of his talent, technique, goalscoring record, etc, it SHOULD be the other way around.

long list of games he flopped, and then he left Inter. that's how it is in my opinion :datass:

Alan
21 Feb 14, 17:11
and that is why for me, sadly, ibra is not a world class player. He doesnt show up for the world class games.

Like I said, he's on a different level now than when he was at Inter, Barca, and probably even Milan. But he hasnt been tested enough at the top level in his new level for me to decide if he's the best of the rest, or actually a genuine contender for a world class label.

Bring on the next round, I hope he gets a hard opponent, and to be brutally honest, I hope he succeeds. It'd finally put this argument to rest...!

What argument? Your argument is invalid.

Ru4real
21 Feb 14, 17:53
This thread is a joke tbh. Now carry on..

pencilpal
21 Feb 14, 21:50
What argument? Your argument is invalid.

Please explain browha's argument, and why it's invalid (to demonstrate whether or not you understand what he's saying).

Look, I disagree with his definition of a world class player; but if you use his definitional methodology, his final conclusion (re Ibra) makes sense.

Alan
21 Feb 14, 22:16
Please explain browha's argument, and why it's invalid (to demonstrate whether or not you understand what he's saying).

Look, I disagree with his definition of a world class player; but if you use his definitional methodology, his final conclusion (re Ibra) makes sense.

Why should I? He asked us for some pages ago to bring up one game which Ibra had done great in an important game. I brought 1 game up and he ignored me.

Some people here are like the racist party in Sweden, they bring up information from sources and twist and bend them like they want and then tell the nation or in this case forum and brainwash everyone.

pencilpal
21 Feb 14, 22:53
Just to prove that you genuinely understand what he's saying, and that you've presented information that has genuinely refuted his points.

THe reality of the situation is that you've failed to do that so far. But if you think that I'm incorrect, prove me wrong.

Alan
22 Feb 14, 00:54
I don't got time to prove the almighty pencilpal wrong since you're never wrong :yao:

Devious
22 Feb 14, 09:21
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1655963_489337574506181_748762291_n.jpg

victor_inter
22 Feb 14, 11:46
this.

No one is disputing the TALENT of Ibrahimovic. Just the mentality and big game deliverance.

For me it is straight forward. A world class player performs in world class matches. I have yet to see Ibra do that consistently enough to give him the title of world class player. This season is the closest that has ever come to changing.

It is not about :wicked wizard: talent or anything like that. It's about professional football.

he dint score in big games this year either, well if u consider monaco a big team in French football.

Ru4real
22 Feb 14, 13:15
he dint score in big games this year either, well if u consider monaco a big team in French football.

Well you obvious dont consider a game vs 2nd in the league for the title race a big game which is so weird in its own but.. do you also not consider wc group games against germany or even the wc play off against portugal a big game? How about champions league games in which he so far scored 10 goals this season alone and is top scorer in then?, no?

I guess the reason he dident score in any big games this season for you is that he hasent played any big games then.

victor_inter
22 Feb 14, 17:09
Well you obvious dont consider a game vs 2nd in the league for the title race a big game which is so weird in its own but.. do you also not consider wc group games against germany or even the wc play off against portugal a big game? How about champions league games in which he so far scored 10 goals this season alone and is top scorer in then?, no?

I guess the reason he dident score in any big games this season for you is that he hasent played any big games then.

i am not browha lol, i actually think he is world class but if you look at it from browha's perspective, he isnt world class yet because he hasnt stepped up in the champions league or even the euros (portugal won and from browha's POV, he dint do enough since CR scored more) when it matters. But you can excuse the EUROS, since sweden is a mediocre team, so going thus far with that team itself is an impressive feat but there shall be no excuses for not performing in the knockout stages of UCL against a BIG team not leverkusen.

Ru4real
22 Feb 14, 17:39
i am not browha lol, i actually think he is world class but if you look at it from browha's perspective, he isnt world class yet because he hasnt stepped up in the champions league or even the euros (portugal won and from browha's POV, he dint do enough since CR scored more) when it matters. But you can excuse the EUROS, since sweden is a mediocre team, so going thus far with that team itself is an impressive feat but there shall be no excuses for not performing in the knockout stages of UCL against a BIG team not leverkusen.

I realized after i posted :) but the point stands. He is playing great in most if not all the "big" games lately. Its like he is beeing punished for having a long career. Most wc players dont even have half the amount of good seasons that ibra has given.

victor_inter
22 Feb 14, 18:14
he will go down as an all time great for sure. i just want an honest opinion, who was the best in their absolute prime out of these 6 players and please ranke them in order; ibra/etoo/henry/van pssy/ruud van nistelrooy/raul

wera
22 Feb 14, 22:34
he definately wasn't as good in Juve and Inter as he is now. and I mean big games included

that's the reason why I'm even in this thread, because I feel different than browha. no, he doesn't deliver in every big game, but neither does CR7 or Suarez or Rooney or some other (so-called) world class strikers. but he DOES deliver in those games too. seems like every time he does, it's not as big of a news as when CR or Messi score goals...


and again, I totally respect browha's opinion. but both will keep saying the same stuff over and over again because we both believe in our words :megusta:

uzhang
23 Feb 14, 01:29
Dont be stupid & naive. According to his nose , Ibra is World Class.


Forza Internazionale Milano FC

Big Willy
23 Feb 14, 01:51
If carrying 2 world class teams, almost by himself to 3 Serie A titles is not being WC, damn...

Verathia
23 Feb 14, 04:05
3 SERIE A titles. Talk to me when he wins something GLOBALLY. Or at least in Europe... Europa league may be a good start for him.

I4E
23 Feb 14, 04:23
Why are people so hung up on European trophies to measure the class of a player ???

Take a look at Zlatan's individual achievements ffs !

On another note, a player like Totti has been 'world class' throughout his career, but he chose 'loyalty' to his club over a move for 'trophies'. Are people gonna be so single minded to suggest that he isn't 'world class' ?

FML

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 05:55
Zlatan annihilates totti as a player in literally everything, yes even skill. Except for long range passing, ibra will eat him alive, its not even close. If anything, totti is the biggest choker in champions league, i dont think he has even scored in the knockout stages. But he did win the world cup which is why people are inclined to believe that he is world class although i honestly wouldnt put him anywhere near messi, ronaldo, zlatan etc. He is not a top tier world class player.

Ffi201zi002tlis
23 Feb 14, 06:05
World class strikers don't necessary win WC or CL to prove their class. Batitsuta won 1 Serie A title in his entire career, R. Baggio or fat Ronaldo didn't win CL. It's how they face against top-class defenders or tough opponents, and this is what Ibra failed.

I4E
23 Feb 14, 06:39
Batistuta is a wonderful example that shows a world class player shouldn't be measured against trophies (or CL games).

wera
23 Feb 14, 06:47
But now browha and co. have an excellent thing to say back, Ibra played in clubs where you expect as much CL glory as one can possibly get. Which of course, we will counter again, everywhere were either team problems (the team not being good enough) or coach problems (Barca)

I'll even go so far that next to Barca, the best club he ever played for was PSG. what a great collective of players. No wonder he was the best in Barca and PSG.

And so on and so forth.

This thread is going to hit more than 1000 pages before he retires if we continue at this pace (I have the forum set on 40 posts per page)

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 07:18
Is fillipo inzhagi world class? I mean apart from scoring, he does nothing else. You wont notice him all game but it only takes one good run from him by beating the offside trap to be proclaimed as a hero. I think he is world class but thats more to do with his uncanny ability to score in every big game, seriously he is the definition of a big game player. He does not possess even a quarter of the talent that ibra boasts yet he scores when it matter. Obviously his lack of skill may force people to exclude him from the pantheon of world class players. But isnt being intelligent and having the best movement in the attacking phase a world class attribute? I mean i would love to see a player like higuain play for us, yes he isnt particularly skilful like say a benzema but he is much more effective if u have creative players around him. Ofcourse we wont be getting higuain but a player who has similar characteristics to him would thrive at inter, in other words a more productive version of icardi would be ideal. Purr strikers are not a dying breed, in the right system, they can make average teams look world class.

wera
23 Feb 14, 07:31
Filippo Inzaghi is the definition of a world class poacher. And sure, Ibra haven't scored in so many important games as Pippo, but Ibra isn't exactly a player that waits in the box, either. What he does is score great goals, have fantastic assists, is great on the ball and makes his teammates in attack look better. Same goes for Suarez. Suarez is another type of player that wants to be involved, who doesn't just wait. Just putting that out there - that's another reason why I rate Suarez and Ibra so highly, even tho they don't have a lot of big european/international titles under their belt. Ibra has all those leagues, Suarez has Copa America. I'm sure to never forget that. Just look at what they bring to the game.

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 07:39
Yeah spot on wera, they are all world class players in their own way and it really depends on whether those aforementioned players suit a particular system or not. At present i would prefer to see us play with higuain upfront because we have creativity but say if this was us back in 07 -08, i would obviously pick ibra etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Btw suarez will never win anything in club football until he leaves loserpool, just putting it out there :).

wera
23 Feb 14, 07:50
I see Rodgers as a really good coach, if they'll find new CBs and somebody to replace Gerrard effectivly enough and is around 24, 25 (they tried with Sahin, and it didn't work, Modrić would probably be the best for them, but he is long gone from EPL now), they will get titles. Oh, their bench is depressing also, apart from Sterling, Allen and maybe one or two more players, everybody else is shit.

Definately a club that is going in the right direction, first step CL football next year, then we'll see what's next. I'd really like Liverpool to return to the top4, I don't want another Leeds, if you know what I mean.

Ok back to the subject.


I'm also jealous of them, I wish we will have our own Suarez-Coutinho-Sturridge connection that isn't over 30 years old, playing in first team

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 08:24
Coutinho, please refrain from mentioning his name, it still infuriates me whenever i realise that coutinho was a former inter player, fucking branca how stupid can u be ffs. Atleast we have alvarez, although i still prefer coutinho over him.

wera
23 Feb 14, 09:50
I'd say Coutinho is the better player (or I'm just biased cuz I like him more), but Alvarez is more suited for Inter.

Also, I'm probably gonna change my opinion soon and join camp browha. Maybe some of us really looked wrong at it. Ibra, world class player withOUT the world class mentality?


had to edit, added 'out'

.h.
23 Feb 14, 10:07
I want to say 2 things:

1 - I've never made any requirement on winning a CL title or similar. That is not in my criteria. That's too much down to simple chance. I look for delivery in big games. Yes, of course everyone sometimes fails in big matches, but iirc Ronaldo Messi (For example) have scored goals in CL finals and vital CL ties.

2 - Ibrahimovic last year scored 3 goals in the CL, so anyone who acts like he's always been 'top class' is simply lying. What we can ALL agree is that Ibrahimovic this season seems to be a lot better than Ibrahimovic last season, or the season before, or any time previously. The question that must be asked now, is whether or not he will do it in the later stages of the CL. If he does what he is capable of in the CL, with the wundergoals or even just some simple tap-ins, or just generally extremely influential on play, then I'll concede the point. But to date in his career he's not done it anything like consistently enough to be called a player with a world class mentality.


Slightly unrelated: Inzaghi is a great example. You only have to look at his two goals against Liverpool in 07 to realise that. And that's exactly my point. Technique and talent, Ibrahimovic is probably one of the top 3 in the world. But it isn't just technique and talent. It's delivery. I would rather have a Milito, who scores in vital games and CL knock out ties, even if they are simple goals - than an Ibrahimovic, who'll score 30 a season but primarily in less important ties, and not show up in the biggest games.

Why do you think Mourinho wanted Milito as a 'foil' [his words] for Ibrahimovic, and not as a replacement? Because he knows we needed someone to score goals in those important ties, and Milito was the guy for it.

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 10:37
The thing about your comments is that they show that you do not watch Ibrahimovic. Thats what makes it so annoying. Its like you are just looking at a spreadsheet and cheery picks what ever suits your cause.

Last year he was playing deep for most of the games and won the assist league in CL with 7 assists. You however do not think that is relevant at all i guess since you dont bring it up in your post. If you watched psg last season you would have seen that looking at numbers alone could not possibly paint an accurate picture of what he does. He was everything in the attack.

2 of the 3 goals he scored that you mention was when it mattered most as scored 1 goal in each of the games against Barcelona in which tie he also had an assist. He was the best player in that tie but somehow he underperformed again from your point of view. Psg dident loose a single game in cl last year and still havent lost a game in cl with zlatan on the field since he came there.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 10:44
And as stated, last season and this season are the closest Ibrahimovic has ever come to world class. But for me he's still not quite yet there. Last season against Barca WAS good, no one is gonna dispute that, but the question is whether or not it is enough? Enough to go *out*. Losing a tie is losing. Scoreline doesn't fucking matter, because they sure as fuck didnt win, and you can't tie in a knockout leg...

Let's see how this season goes.... Unlike the Ibrahimovic fanboys, I'm prepared to revise my opinion based on how he performs...

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 10:57
I honestly don't care if you change your mind. I just wish that if you are going to argue zlatan is not wc regardless of how special your criteria is for that label, one would think you would at least regularly watch the player but you dont..

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 10:59
He also had the most assists with 7 in CL last year despite his team was kicked out in the quarter-finals.

But it's always the same: When he delivered against Barcelona (1 goal, 2 assists) or Portugal (2 goals) it was not worth to mention because his team got kicked out. When he scored against Leverkusen in the CL-Ko-stage it's not worth because it was just Leverkusen. When he deliverd against Austria in the deciding group game of WC qualification (1 Goal in '90, 1 assist) it's not worth because it was just Austria. In Milan derby it was just a poor Inter side, against Arsenal he was lucky playing in the best team of the world, when he scored against Marseille last season it was just Marseille, when he scored against Monaco this season it was just Monaco, when he scored against Milan or Roma when he played for us there were other games against them when he didn't score ...

.h.
23 Feb 14, 11:08
yeah, and similarly, oh when he fails at Barcelona it's the coaches fault, ibrahimovic is actually god like. When he fails in the Champions League it's because the team suck, but when he does well, it's because he's brilliant.

Too disappointing for too much of his career. He should have done a lot more, considering his talent. His strike rate in 'big games' for Inter was less than like 1-in-4. Fucking appalling.

And no, I dont give a shit about the internationals really, because as pointed out he plays for SWEDEN. Against arsenal he had a good game, but that's one game. Look at his performances for Barca against Inter, for example.


Ibrahimovic fanboys lose all rationality when defending their god.

Its like Mourinho said

when the team succeeds, its because the team is great. When it fails, the manager is a failure.


When Ibrahimovic succeeds, you're all very quick to assign credit to him. But when he fails - and he's done an awful lot of that - you're very quick to say it isn't his fault and that everyone else around him sucks.


And then Wicked gets arsey because someone talks about 'carrying the team'.


Have at least a consistent fucking argument.


I dont know what it is, Ibrahimovic is like Bieber for some of you...

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 11:16
Is asking someone to watch the player they are talking about on a regular basis an unrealistic demand?


Please.. everyone is entitled to their opinion but you cant expect (me atleast) to take you seriously or listen to potential points that you may or may not have when you dont even watch him. Its ridiculous.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 11:20
I do still watch quite a lot of Ibrahimovic, I dont particularly catch the french league (admittedly) but at the same time, I dont think there are any big games for him in the French League. The average value of Monaco, the next biggest club after PSG, is less than half of PSG. And that's primarily pulled up by a player who is out for the next few months. So no, unsurprisingly, I dont give a fuck about the French League, and it's laughable you might even call Marseille a big game. It's certainly the biggest game, but not big by any reasonable metric. It's hardly Chelsea v City.

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 11:21
Ibrahimovic scored more goals in CL than players like Eto, Drogba, Trezeguet, van Persie, Rooney or Del Piero. The only active players that scored more goals in CL than him are Messi and Ronaldo.

And then he has been too disappointing for too much of his career? This is just ridiculous.

It's the same like saying Baggio wasn't world class because he doesn't shine in the whole second half of his carrer because he wasn't really great with Milan and Inter or he played for Brescia and Bologna. He scored against Real? Wow. But that's it, because he only scored a handfull of CL goals in his career and the others were against teams like Sturm Graz. Oh, and in '94 WC he only managed to score against Nigeria, Bulgaria and a weak Spanish side. Where was he in group stage when his team nearly got kicked out? And his performance in the final - no comment.

Maybe Ibrahimovic is like Bieber for some of us. But you remind me of a 14-year-old boy saying saying Michael Jackson or Beyonce never has been great performers because you think they are "gay" and you don't like their music.


I do still watch quite a lot of Ibrahimovic, I dont particularly catch the french league (admittedly) but at the same time, I dont think there are any big games for him in the French League. The average value of Monaco, the next biggest club after PSG, is less than half of PSG. And that's primarily pulled up by a player who is out for the next few months. So no, unsurprisingly, I dont give a fuck about the French League, and it's laughable you might even call Marseille a big game. It's certainly the biggest game, but not big by any reasonable metric. It's hardly Chelsea v City.

And Dortmund vs. Bayern hasn't been a big game in 2011/12 and there are no big games for Juventus in Seria A anymore because of the same reason.

Yeah, to be really world class in France Ibrahimovic should score 50 goals and win two championships - each season.

jmaster
23 Feb 14, 11:24
Maybe Ibrahimovic is like Bieber for some of us. But you remind me of a 14-year-old boy saying saying Michael Jackson or Beyonce never has been great performers because you think they are "gay" and you don't like their music.

BEYONCE IS NOT GAY!!!!!!!

don't be unlikable http://i43.tinypic.com/2n9gobc.jpg

.h.
23 Feb 14, 11:27
Ibrahimovic scored more goals in CL than players like Eto, Drogba, Trezeguet, van Persie, Rooney or Del Piero. The only active players that scored more goals in CL than him are Messi and Ronaldo.

And then he has been too disappointing for too much of his career? This is just ridiculous.

It's the same like saying Baggio wasn't world class because he doesn't shine in the whole second half of his carrer because he wasn't really great with Milan and Inter or he played for Brescia and Bologna. He scored against Real? Wow. But that's it, because he only scored a handfull of CL goals in his career and the others were against teams like Sturm Graz. Oh, and in '94 WC he only managed to score against Nigeria, Bulgaria and a weak Spanish side. Where was he in group stage when his team nearly got kicked out? And his performance in the final - no comment.

Maybe Ibrahimovic is like Bieber for some of us. But you remind me of a 14-year-old boy saying saying Michael Jackson or Beyonce never has been great performers because you think they are "gay" and you don't like their music.

Sorry, you're going to tell me Ibrahimovic hasn't had a disappointing career, despite never coming even *close* to winning a balloon d'or, and only once ever getting to the CL semi finals?

I thought I was being harsh on him, but you're just damn well underrating him. For a player of Ibrahimovic's talent, he should have been at most of the last 7 CL semi finals....

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 11:45
Sorry, you're going to tell me Ibrahimovic hasn't had a disappointing career, despite never coming even *close* to winning a balloon d'or, and only once ever getting to the CL semi finals?

I thought I was being harsh on him, but you're just damn well underrating him. For a player of Ibrahimovic's talent, he should have been at most of the last 7 CL semi finals....

I am telling you he just scored more goals in one of the biggest stages for a football player than every other active player beside Messi and Ronaldo. And there also have been some big games where he scored. Not bad for someone who has been too disappointing for too much of his career. Or did he score suddenly over 40 CL goals this season?

What you bring on are just ridiculous arguments for a players being world class or not. Now it's suddenly the CL semi-finals. Or coming close to the Ballon d'Or. That is something that only five (?) players achieved in the last six years.

Poor Bale, Neymar, Cavani, van Persie, Silva, Falcao, Suarez, Kompany, Lewandowski, Hazard, Agüero - None of you have ever been world class or will ever be as long as Messi and Ronaldo are playing.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 11:59
I am telling you he just scored more goals in one of the biggest stages for a football player than every other active player beside Messi and Ronaldo. And there also have been some big games where he scored. Not bad for someone who has been too disappointing for too much of his career. Or did he score suddenly over 40 CL goals this season?

What you bring on are just ridiculous arguments for a players being world class or not. Now it's suddenly the CL semi-finals. Or coming close to the Ballon d'Or. That is something that only five (?) players achieved in the last six years.

Poor Bale, Neymar, Cavani, van Persie, Silva, Falcao, Suarez, Kompany, Lewandowski, Hazard, Agüero - None of you have ever been world class or will ever be as long as Messi and Ronaldo are playing.


Yeah, sorry, my definition of world class includes some sort of 'trials', rather than just 'oh you scored 4 goals in a friendly, you must be world class'.

Damn right I expect a world class player to be competing at something like a decent European level. Unless you believe someone can be world class playing in Serie C1, without ever having to play against real men.

Ibra, in his best ever year to date, is still less than a quarter of the votes that Sneijder had when he came 4th in 2010.

You're damn fucking right, considering how much some of you jizz yourselves over him, that I expect him to be competing in those sorts of games.

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 12:26
Considering you like statistics so much here is a stat for you.

You havent watched ibra´s 90ish games with psg in the league / cup in the last 2 seasons and you havent watched him play for the swedish NT which prolly is another 10+ games. On top of that he has played another 14 games or so in cl i the last 2 season so far.

So in his last 115 games or so of the last 2 season you have seen a maximum of 14ish champions league games. In those 14 CL games he scored 13 goals and made 7 assists.. Now to narrow it down further he played 5 knockout games during these last 2 season in CL since this is a more important statistic to you. In these 5 games he scored 4 goals and assisted atleast 1 (on the top of my head) possibly more..

And in those 90ish games you dident watch for psg he scored more goals in the league than anyone ever since Papin (playing in a new league).

For sweden NT he has been unbelivable scoring almost 1 goal per game + assists.

Nough said really. Go watch him instead of commenting on him.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 12:29
Yeah, I dont want to watch shitty french football where Ibrahimovic plays against some players who aren't far off amateur level still. So fucking sue me. I'm not pencilpal.

I'll watch him in his big matches, however few and far between, and as stated, there's a big fucking difference between Ibrahimovic in a big match, vs Ibra in those little french league matches.

You really cant handle the fact that your God is somehow on a different level to Messi and Ronaldo, can you?

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 12:32
Actually his statistics is even better in cl games than in the french league in the last 2 seasons. And its even better even if you look only at the knockout games.

But hey im sure if you look at only the cl games with teams who play in blue/red it will be true.. No shit thats barca well maybe white then?

I can handle anyone who actually watch what they are talking abouts opinion on anything. I cant stand ppl who talk for the sake of talking tho. Messi and ronaldo are great player as well got no issues with anyone preferring them to ibra even tho i dont.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 12:38
and this is where we now get horrifically circular...

sigh, see, this is why i dont like doing this


damn you wera, damn you.

Alan
23 Feb 14, 13:51
Told you browha is a bullshitter, he is just here for the sake of posts, spammer. You can go spam somewhere else don't do it on Gods page. Pretty fucking please?

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 14:02
Yeah, sorry, my definition of world class includes some sort of 'trials', rather than just 'oh you scored 4 goals in a friendly, you must be world class'.

Damn right I expect a world class player to be competing at something like a decent European level. Unless you believe someone can be world class playing in Serie C1, without ever having to play against real men.

Ibra, in his best ever year to date, is still less than a quarter of the votes that Sneijder had when he came 4th in 2010.

You're damn fucking right, considering how much some of you jizz yourselves over him, that I expect him to be competing in those sorts of games.

fillipo inzhagi and diego milito, enough said. ibra played like ozil in big games until last year EOD. To me ibra is world class but from browha's perspective, he simply hasnt proven enough to be considered as a top tier world class player like messi and ronaldo. Btw browha, with the exclusion of messi and Cr7, who else would you consider as being close to ibra? i know you might have answered this question earlier but sorry i dont visit this forum often like some of the more committed posters here, i wish i did though.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 14:06
fillipo inzhagi and diego milito, enough said. ibra played like ozil in big games until last year EOD. To me ibra is world class but from browha's perspective, he simply hasnt proved enough to be considered amongst the likes of messi and ronaldo. Btw browha, with the exclusion of messi and Cr7, who else would you consider as being close to ibra? i know you might have answered this question earlier but sorry i dont visit this forum often like some of the more committed posters here, i wish i did though.

My personal definition of world class revolves around a starting eleven. For me, world class is the eleven players you would pick in a coherent position + people on the SAME level.

So, I'd have to say, world class is probably SOMETHING like...

Neuer
Alves (not really who I want to put there but on that sort of level anyway, no one better jumps to mind immediately) Thiago Silva Ramos/Marquinhos(?) Lahm
Vidal Xavi Iniesta

Ribery Ronaldo Messi


Like I said, not necessarily those exact players, but that's sort of the ball game I'm looking at. Those players + people on the 'same level'. For me Ibrahimovic is a level behind Messi and Ronaldo, which is why I dont consider him world class. In midfield there's room for a bit more interchanging, I don't want to sit here and go through player-by-player whether someone is world class or not, but I think you get the feel of the game from that.


So, yeah. World class for me is the 'XI I would pick if we had to do a world's best team' + anyone who is on the same level as a player in that world XI. For example when Alves and Maicon were both at the top of their game, you could have *easily* made a case for both being world class, quite rightly. And fine, we had two truly world class right backs at that time. Similarly you might only have one truly world class keeper, sometimes you might have 3-4 (I'm thinking like Buffon in prime, Cesar, Cech, for example).

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 14:45
i like that lineup, except i would add either one of robben or bale instead of ribery lol. As for the midfield, i prefer someone like yaya toure over current xavi but thats just me.

btw i meant close to being considered as world class not close to ibra lol.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 14:48
i like that lineup, except i would add either one of robben or bale instead of ribery lol. As for the midfield, i prefer someone like yaya toure over current xavi but thats just me.

btw i meant close to being considered as world class not close to ibra lol.

Like I said, I'm not using it as a definitive line up. But that's roughly what we're working on, at least.

Bale at Tottenham was exceptionally good, but I would like to see him in a better team before I call him world class. He's done well at Real so far this season, but he's clearly got at least one more level to reach - probably two. I'd like to see him do that before we call him world class ;) He was brilliant for Tottenham, but now he's where the men are separated from the boys.

Fapuccino
23 Feb 14, 14:54
Lmao he single handedly dismantled our entire treble defence in 3 separate occasions, not to mention at WHL. I think EPL is overrated as fuck, but Bale is world class for me.

Hazard for example, I can understand debating.

I think the only 4 world class wingers are ronaldo, robben, ribbery, bale. Bale at his best is better than all of them, maybe tied with Robben for his best. He tends to fade in and out of games which he has to improve though.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 14:57
Lmao he single handedly dismantled our entire treble defence in 3 separate occasions, not to mention at WHL. I think EPL is overrated as fuck, but Bale is world class for me.

Hazard for example, I can understand debating.

I think the only 4 world class wingers are ronaldo, robben, ribbery, bale. Bale at his best is better than all of them, maybe tied with Robben for his best. He tends to fade in and out of games which he has to improve though.
I think bale is certainly going to be world class, but I'd like to see him tested more often at the top level. That's why I'm pleased he moved to Real Madrid, because now we can see what the actual impact is.

My point was more about... history of delivery, there. Yeah, bale's had some exceptional games, but I'd like to see him deliver it consistently at the top level. Same as Ibra, really :yao:

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 14:59
Lmao he single handedly dismantled our entire treble defence in 3 separate occasions, not to mention at WHL. I think EPL is overrated as fuck, but Bale is world class for me.

Hazard for example, I can understand debating.

I think the only 4 world class wingers are ronaldo, robben, ribbery, bale. Bale at his best is better than all of them, maybe tied with Robben for his best. He tends to fade in and out of games which he has to improve though.

spot on mate. but i am a little biased regarding robben, i really believe that if he is on form and is at his absolute peak, he is equal to ronaldo cr 7.

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 16:07
@ browha:

You say Ibrahimovic and Bale have to deliver it consistently at the top level to be world class. You have to come close to Ballon d'Or or at least play some CL semi-finals to be world class. But Vidal, Silva and Marquinhos are world class in your eyes.

SlumDog
23 Feb 14, 16:09
Ibra is the worlds best best player ... End of story

wera
23 Feb 14, 16:09
lol Ibra had a fallout with Pep and still scored a bunch of goals. that's straight hate if you think he didn't do well in Barcelona. arguably at his best that season

.h.
23 Feb 14, 16:19
he was brought to Barca to replace Eto'o - remember, Eto'o plus 45 million for Ibra.

He scored 16 goals in 29 and 4 in 10 (+1 in 3 in Cups). That's a total of 21 goals in 42 games. Hardly a success in is one of the most free-scoring teams ever. Especially when you consider Eto'o scored 36 in 52 the season before.

Alan
23 Feb 14, 16:53
he was brought to Barca to replace Eto'o - remember, Eto'o plus 45 million for Ibra.

He scored 16 goals in 29 and 4 in 10 (+1 in 3 in Cups). That's a total of 21 goals in 42 games. Hardly a success in is one of the most free-scoring teams ever. Especially when you consider Eto'o scored 36 in 52 the season before.

Please, you bring up stats without the history behind them. I would like Messi to try to get those stats with a coach who barely speaks with you, wait lets correct that, who DIDN'T speak with you for 6 months OR that he went from playing central making history and scoring every game to being put on the wing. Seriously ON THE FUCKING WING?

Lets buy a Ferrari and drive him like a Fiat.

You are here to get more posts and nothing else, spammer. Stats here and stats there.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 16:54
yet the stats are the only thing that anyone will remember...

That's the problem with Zlatan. You always need some context to justify his failures. A properly world class player doesn't need context, and just stands out.

but-but-but Inter were shit when he was playing in the CL. But-but-but Juve were shit before that. But-but Milan were not a CL competitive side when he played for THEM too. But he had other issues at Barca


Always an excuse, never an achievement in SPITE of.

'In spite of the fact that Inter were shit, Zlatan carried them to the CL latter stages', 'In spite of the fact that he had a tough time at Barca, he showed everyone his world class mentality and pulled them through to the CL final'.

No. With Zlatan it's but, not inspite.


edit:

How about this for some in spite of? In spite of the fact that Andy Cole and Teddy Sheringham didnt speak ONCE as United team mates, they still managed to bring the fucking CL trophy home in the treble in 99. Zlatan is nothing but a parchment of excuses and inactions.

ScottishInterista
23 Feb 14, 17:07
Scored a hat-trick today....

Alan
23 Feb 14, 17:13
yet the stats are the only thing that anyone will remember...

That's the problem with Zlatan. You always need some context to justify his failures. A properly world class player doesn't need context, and just stands out.

but-but-but Inter were shit when he was playing in the CL. But-but-but Juve were shit before that. But-but Milan were not a CL competitive side when he played for THEM too. But he had other issues at Barca


Always an excuse, never an achievement in SPITE of.

'In spite of the fact that Inter were shit, Zlatan carried them to the CL latter stages', 'In spite of the fact that he had a tough time at Barca, he showed everyone his world class mentality and pulled them through to the CL final'.

No. With Zlatan it's but, not inspite.


edit:

How about this for some in spite of? In spite of the fact that Andy Cole and Teddy Sheringham didnt speak ONCE as United team mates, they still managed to bring the fucking CL trophy home in the treble in 99. Zlatan is nothing but a parchment of excuses and inactions.

Where have you heard me say Inter was shit or the rest of the fucking shit you just wrote? You fucking nazi. Putting words in my mouth.

- - - Updated - - -


Scored a hat-trick today....

Did it bring them to CL final? No, then stfu. - Browha

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 17:13
yet the stats are the only thing that anyone will remember...

That's the problem with Zlatan. You always need some context to justify his failures. A properly world class player doesn't need context, and just stands out.

but-but-but Inter were shit when he was playing in the CL. But-but-but Juve were shit before that. But-but Milan were not a CL competitive side when he played for THEM too. But he had other issues at Barca


Always an excuse, never an achievement in SPITE of.

'In spite of the fact that Inter were shit, Zlatan carried them to the CL latter stages', 'In spite of the fact that he had a tough time at Barca, he showed everyone his world class mentality and pulled them through to the CL final'.

No. With Zlatan it's but, not inspite.


edit:

How about this for some in spite of? In spite of the fact that Andy Cole and Teddy Sheringham didnt speak ONCE as United team mates, they still managed to bring the fucking CL trophy home in the treble in 99. Zlatan is nothing but a parchment of excuses and inactions.

The only one with but's are you. I come with the statistic that he is the third best active CL scorer, 10th in history. Better than players like Del Piero, Trezeguet, Makaay, Rooney, Rivaldo, Crespo, van Persie ... But that isn't worth anything in your eyes.

Then you come up with his Barca season, saying he "only" scored one goal every second game and that is the stat that will be remembered. :yao: That's the same nonsense like I say it only will be remembered that in his single Barcelona season he won a Spanish championship, two Spanish supercups, a UEFA supercup and a Club-World-Cup.

You come up with things like he has to perform consistently at the top level to be world class. He has to be a contender for Ballon d'Or to be world class. He has to play more CL semi-finals to be world class. And then you say Vidal, Silva and Marquinhos are world class.

Now please, please tell me: How can this three players be world class while Zlatan isn't?!

I don't have a problem if somebody says: There are only two world class players atm. And they are Ronaldo and Messi. But your arguments are just nonsense born from a strange Zlatan hate - a player who I don't even like. O_o

.h.
23 Feb 14, 17:15
Where have you heard me say Inter was shit or the rest of the fucking shit you just wrote? You fucking nazi. Putting words in my mouth.



Nazi? You wouldnt know a fucking nazi if he came to your house, raped your family and drew a fucking swastika in your ball-less crotch

:palm:

You're assuming an awful lot when I was saying those 'but' statements were ALL meant to be yours. That's an argument that *MANY* people have used to defend The Holy One Zlatan Ibrahimovic (hitherto known as THOZI).

:palm:

You've just scraped the depths of the barrel of retardation. Congrats! Despite the fact that Jonathan played football today, you actually manage to win retard of the day! It's quite an impressive achievement!

Alan
23 Feb 14, 17:17
Nazi? You wouldnt know a fucking nazi if he came to your house, raped your family and drew a fucking swastika in your ball-less crotch

:palm:

You're assuming an awful lot when I was saying those 'but' statements were ALL meant to be yours. That's an argument that *MANY* people have used to defend The Holy One Zlatan Ibrahimovic (hitherto known as THOZI).

:palm:

You've just scraped the depths of the barrel of retardation. Congrats! Despite the fact that Jonathan played football today, you actually manage to win retard of the day! It's quite an impressive achievement!

How about this. You talk alot about stats, stats this and stats that. Then you say but French league is shit and it doesn't matter blablabla. But it does according to your statsshit that he only will be remembered of? He will be remembered as one of them best since he scored a lot of goals no matter if it was against good or bad team. So your fucking arguments are invalid as usual. :palm:

Bullshit after bullshit. Spam more, get those posts running.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 17:22
The only one with but's are you. I come with the statistic that he is the third best active CL scorer, 10th in history. Better than players like Del Piero, Trezeguet, Makaay, Rooney, Rivaldo, Crespo, van Persie ... But that isn't worth anything in your eyes.

Then you come up with his Barca season, saying he "only" scored one goal every second game and that is the stat that will be remembered. :yao: That's the same nonsense like I say it only will be remembered that in his single Barcelona season he won a Spanish championship, two Spanish supercups, a UEFA supercup and a Club-World-Cup.

You come up with things like he has to perform consistently at the top level to be world class. He has to be a contender for Ballon d'Or to be world class. He has to play more CL semi-finals to be world class. And then you say Vidal, Silva and Marquinhos are world class.

Now please, please tell me: How can this three players be world class while Zlatan isn't?!

I don't have a problem if somebody says: There are only two world class players atm. And they are Ronaldo and Messi. But your arguments are just nonsense.
Sorry, I haven't had the chance to respond to you, there's an annoying mosquito near my ear.

Anyway, lets address your points:

Ibrahimovic's goalscoring rate is good. But you're ignoring a lot of context. He's played the 6th most games in the CL of the following list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top _scorers

yet he's only 10th in the all-time goalscoring list. The player directly below him, still active, is Didier Drogba - who has played 17 games less than Ibra and is only 1 goal behind!

As you point out, too, he's scored 10 this season. Before this year, he had 33 goals - which would put him way down the list. In fact of active players on that list, only Giggs has played more games than Ibrahimovic. His goalscoring rate is much less (at 0.42) than Ronaldo (0.61), Drogba (0.49) Benzema (0.57)... Even Van Persie is only slightly below Ibra (0.39)

So, no, I dont find that particularly impressive. It means he's played a lot of games. If he had done it in half the number of games, I'd tip my hat to him, fair play. But he hasn't, and he's only JUST coming together.




Re:Vidal, Silva, Marquinhos... There's always been a skew away from midfielders in the Balloon D'Or. HOWEVER, I clearly stated my definition of the world class thing. It's about the best XI. So yes, that means you can have a midfielder who is 'not as good a player' as someone who is omitted, but simply is the best midfielder in the game at the moment.

I think its fair to say Vidal is one of the best midfielders in the game at the moment, I dont think anyone reasonable would disagree with that.

It isn't just some 5 year old's list of best players going from 1 to 20,000,000. It's about the "world's best team", and in that sense, a world class defender might not be as good as a non-world class striker, SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS A LACK OF GOOD DEFENDERS RIGHT NOW (gasp, shock, horror!)


It's about the XI. Ibrahimovic is a cut below the players in attacking on my world XI. The defensive side of the world's best XI isnt as good as it may have been 10, 15 years ago (i.e. people like Nesta, Maldini, etc), but there you go.

- - - Updated - - -


How about this. You talk alot about stats, stats this and stats that. Then you say but French league is shit and it doesn't matter blablabla. But it does according to your statsshit that he only will be remembered of? He will be remembered as one of them best since he scored a lot of goals no matter if it was against good or bad team. So your fucking arguments are invalid as usual. :palm:

Bullshit after bullshit. Spam more, get those posts running.

You're telling me the french league isnt shit, then?


oh, sorry, you think I'm a nazi


you wouldnt know a nazi if he stuck his bayonet up your arse and it came out your mouth again, because you'd be so used to the taste of the shit you talk.

Alan
23 Feb 14, 17:26
I wont read through that, I'm too lazy reading too much bullshit. I surrender, fuck me, you are right browha!

http://www.gmi.org/files/9112/6755/2575/cd_pray2.jpg

.h.
23 Feb 14, 17:28
I wont read through that, I'm too lazy reading too much bullshit. I surrender, fuck me, you are right browha!

http://www.gmi.org/files/9112/6755/2575/cd_pray2.jpg

As expected. Someone pulls out a nazi argument and then crumbles.

Why bother posting if you're just going to post pathetic bullshit? Nothing but personal attacks, accusations of being a "nazi", and then trying to cop out of an argument by feigning disinterest.


Pathetic. GTFO my stretchhose.

L_Tdk
23 Feb 14, 17:32
he was brought to Barca to replace Eto'o - remember, Eto'o plus 45 million for Ibra.

He scored 16 goals in 29 and 4 in 10 (+1 in 3 in Cups). That's a total of 21 goals in 42 games. Hardly a success in is one of the most free-scoring teams ever. Especially when you consider Eto'o scored 36 in 52 the season before.

Aww, this is just unfair for Ibrahimovic though: here you are comparing him whith a player who has always been superior till his 20 mln mega-luxury retirement.
Indeed: Eto'o (until intentional retirement in 2011) > every version of Ibrahimovic.

Anyway, I completely agree with your fair point, browha.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 17:34
Aww, this is just unfair for Ibrahimovic though: here you are comparing him whith a player who has always been superior till his 20 mln mega-luxury retirement.
Indeed: Eto'o (until intentional retirement in 2011) > every version of Ibrahimovic.

Anyway, I completely agree with your fair point, browha.

Thank you.

I love Ibrahimovic, I think he's a very talented footballer, I think he's done some amazing things, and I'm VERY grateful we had him at Inter (just to clear that up because I have to voice quite a negative opinion).


But he is not in the same league as the top players in this world today. He's failed on too many occassions in the biggest matches to be put in their league. He might well be more talented than some of them, but he's not as good as a professional footballer.

Bergpavian
23 Feb 14, 17:48
Sorry, I haven't had the chance to respond to you, there's an annoying mosquito near my ear.

Anyway, lets address your points:

Ibrahimovic's goalscoring rate is good. But you're ignoring a lot of context. He's played the 6th most games in the CL of the following list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top _scorers

yet he's only 10th in the all-time goalscoring list. The player directly below him, still active, is Didier Drogba - who has played 17 games less than Ibra and is only 1 goal behind!

As you point out, too, he's scored 10 this season. Before this year, he had 33 goals - which would put him way down the list. In fact of active players on that list, only Giggs has played more games than Ibrahimovic. His goalscoring rate is much less (at 0.42) than Ronaldo (0.61), Drogba (0.49) Benzema (0.57)... Even Van Persie is only slightly below Ibra (0.39)

So, no, I dont find that particularly impressive. It means he's played a lot of games. If he had done it in half the number of games, I'd tip my hat to him, fair play. But he hasn't, and he's only JUST coming together.

Somehow this your argument is invalid because even if his goal ratio isn't as good as the ratio of the player your mentioned it's still better than that of Eto, van Persie, Rooney, Crespo, Rivaldo, Elber and only slightly worse than that of Henry or Del Piero.

And when you say it's not impressive to score so many goals in so many games I have to ask how it's possible that a player - being disappointing for most of his career - playing over 100 CL games for team like Juventus, Milan, Inter, Barcelona?


Re:Vidal, Silva, Marquinhos... There's always been a skew away from midfielders in the Balloon D'Or. HOWEVER, I clearly stated my definition of the world class thing. It's about the best XI. So yes, that means you can have a midfielder who is 'not as good a player' as someone who is omitted, but simply is the best midfielder in the game at the moment.

I think its fair to say Vidal is one of the best midfielders in the game at the moment, I dont think anyone reasonable would disagree with that.

It isn't just some 5 year old's list of best players going from 1 to 20,000,000. It's about the "world's best team", and in that sense, a world class defender might not be as good as a non-world class striker, SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS A LACK OF GOOD DEFENDERS RIGHT NOW (gasp, shock, horror!)


It's about the XI. Ibrahimovic is a cut below the players in attacking on my world XI. The defensive side of the world's best XI isnt as good as it may have been 10, 15 years ago (i.e. people like Nesta, Maldini, etc), but there you go.

What? So your World XI is about NOW. AT THIS MOMENT?

From Vidal it's expected to lead Jubentus to the treble. Last season they were kicked out in quater-finals, this year they weren't even able to make it out of group stage. And even in Coppa Jubentus flopped. He shines in Serie A - but is that so hard at the moment? Not really. It's easy to carry your team to three Serie-A-championships (see Ibrahimovic). So: According to your arguments against Ibra he isn't world class (I also don't think anyone would say Messi is playing better than Ibra atm).

Marquinhos never performed on top level. It's kinda unfair because he never has been able to. But till now: He hasn't. So: Not world class.

And Silva is an interesting case. He's an defender and I think when you consider his price tag, wage and standing he is supposed to lead the defence in the team he is playing. So let's see how he has done in the last seasons: First it feels like he missed one third of his games because of injuries.

Last season against Barcelona his team scored three goals (Ibra took part in all of the goals) and his team conceded three goals. Not so good. The season before there was no top game in Serie A when Milan didn't concede goals. Against Barcelona in group stage (he missed the knock-out-stage) Barca scored five times against Milan. And while the first Arsenal game was a Zlatan show, his defence look bad three times in the rematch. The season before: Three goals from Real, seven from Manchester and so on and so on.

Maybe he won a lot of titles? Ah, Italian and French championship - in teams in which Ibrahimovic carried his team to the championship and was the superstar.


You've just scraped the depths of the barrel of retardation. Congrats! Despite the fact that Jonathan played football today, you actually manage to win retard of the day! It's quite an impressive achievement!

Quite offensive but just :lol:

L_Tdk
23 Feb 14, 17:53
Thank you.

I love Ibrahimovic, I think he's a very talented footballer, I think he's done some amazing things, and I'm VERY grateful we had him at Inter (just to clear that up because I have to voice quite a negative opinion).


But he is not in the same league as the top players in this world today. He's failed on too many occassions in the biggest matches to be put in their league. He might well be more talented than some of them, but he's not as good as a professional footballer.

Exactly.
To me, Ibrahimovic has never fulfilled his true potential, indeed his skills would have allowed him to achieve a better career, but his head has always been his biggest limit.
This year, nearly 33, he seems more mature though, but it's still early to definitely say that: Anderlecht and Leverkusen are just poor teams, he must do the same things against Real, or Bayern for example (right to stay on, as for example Eto'o did at Allianz Arena in 2011).

.h.
23 Feb 14, 18:00
Somehow this your argument is invalid because even if his goal ratio isn't as good as the ratio of the player your mentioned it's still better than that of Eto, van Persie, Rooney, Crespo, Rivaldo, Elber and only slightly worse than that of Henry or Del Piero.

And when you say it's not impressive to score so many goals in so many games I have to ask how it's possible that a player - being disappointing for most of his career - playing over 100 CL games for team like Juventus, Milan, Inter, Barcelona?



What? So your World XI is about NOW. AT THIS MOMENT?

From Vidal it's expected to lead Jubentus to the treble. Last season they were kicked out in quater-finals, this year they weren't even able to make it out of group stage. And even in Coppa Jubentus flopped. He shines in Serie A - but is that so hard at the moment? Not really. It's easy to carry your team to three Serie-A-championships (see Ibrahimovic). So: According to your arguments against Ibra he isn't world class (I also don't think anyone would say Messi is playing better than Ibra atm).

Marquinhos never performed on top level. It's kinda unfair because he never has been able to. But till now: He hasn't. So: Not world class.

And Silva is an interesting case. He's an defender and I think when you consider his price tag, wage and standing he is supposed to lead the defence in the team he is playing. So let's see how he has done in the last seasons: First it feels like he missed one third of his games because of injuries.

Last season against Barcelona his team scored three goals (Ibra took part in all of the goals) and his team conceded three goals. Not so good. The season before there was no top game in Serie A when Milan didn't concede goals. Against Barcelona in group stage (he missed the knock-out-stage) Barca scored five times against Milan. And while the first Arsenal game was a Zlatan show, his defence look bad three times in the rematch. The season before: Three goals from Real, seven from Manchester and so on and so on.

Maybe he won a lot of titles? Ah, Italian and French championship - in teams in which Ibrahimovic carried his team to the championship and was the superstar.



Quite offensive but just :lol:

Well, that is an interesting question re: how he's played so long. Of course it is partially to do with age - he's one of the oldest players on that list still active. But it's also to do with his teams.

What I will say, though, is 20% of those games were for Ajax (bearing in mind that also includes a traditional 2 group stage season)..

But, there's no point defending that part.

Don't get me wrong, simply the number of games he's played IS impressive. That is very impressive and not parallelled by many. But his goalscoring rate, for example, could have been so much better.

As L_Tdk says... Zlatan has never fulfilled his full potential imho. Would you disagree with that? That one CL semi final appearance is what 'is justified' for Ibrahimovic? I really dont think it is, tbh.

No, Marquinhos I wouldnt really say is world class, I just wanted to put another CB in there and he's the most expensive one recently.


Also, Zlatan has a bit of a habit of going to places with easy title championships. Not going to comment on Holland, but Milan were fail in the league (that was always the irony, of course) during Ibra at Juventus. That's before we consider the Calciopoli. At Inter for 2 years at least we had the league handed to us on a plate, Barca broke all league records when they won the league in that era, in 10-11 they have 96 points, in 9-10 99 points, etc. They RAN away with the league.



I'd have found it interesting to see Ibrahimovic compete in the most competitive leagues at the time. I'm looking at England, for example (No, I dont feel you have to play in England to be world class, and No, I dont care how Messi would "perform in Stoke on a cold foggy winter's night"). Because I suspect he wouldn't have the records that he does now if he did.



Anyway, simply let me ask:

Has Ibrahimovic fulfilled all of his promise according to you? Given what he's capable of, I cant help but feel he should have been more competitive on the Messi/Ronaldo level with repeated CL appearances in latter stages (for example). Instead his career sum at the moment is 1 CL semifinal appearance. That simply can't be good enough.

Dylan
23 Feb 14, 19:02
Zlatan has come out and said he never said anything about ''destroying the EPL'' and it's complete BS.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 19:05
I'm sorry Dylan but I dont know what you're talking about?

Dylan
23 Feb 14, 19:30
I assumed it was posted here, saw it on FB.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2565970/Id-destroyed-Premier-League-I-moved-England-insists-star-striker-Zlatan-Ibrahimovic.html


He came out and said it's 100% BS and it's not the first time people have made up stuff about him and quotes. I'd say 50% of Zlatan quotes are real.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 19:31
Fair enough.

Still, I dont think he would have done so well in a league with a bit more... depth...

pencilpal
23 Feb 14, 19:42
My personal definition of world class revolves around a starting eleven. For me, world class is the eleven players you would pick in a coherent position + people on the SAME level.

So, I'd have to say, world class is probably SOMETHING like...

Neuer
Alves (not really who I want to put there but on that sort of level anyway, no one better jumps to mind immediately) Thiago Silva Ramos/Marquinhos(?) Lahm
Vidal Xavi Iniesta

Ribery Ronaldo Messi

So, yeah. World class for me is the 'XI I would pick if we had to do a world's best team' + anyone who is on the same level as a player in that world XI. For example when Alves and Maicon were both at the top of their game, you could have *easily* made a case for both being world class, quite rightly. And fine, we had two truly world class right backs at that time. Similarly you might only have one truly world class keeper, sometimes you might have 3-4 (I'm thinking like Buffon in prime, Cesar, Cech, for example).

Browha, my concern regarding your definition is that it restricts world class players to those that fit well in a 4-3-3 type tactic. What about the best secondary striker in the world? Or the best trequarista in the world?

How would you define world class players that have roles that fit into different formations?

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 19:43
Lol so now he is not even very good in the league and the titles were so easy yada yada. You are doing a very poor job at masking your hate for ibra imo.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 19:52
Lol so now he is not even very good in the league and the titles were so easy yada yada. You are doing a very poor job at masking your hate for ibra imo.

Did I ever say he wasn't good in the league? No, I didnt.

But you can't deny the Barca title in 2010 was easy. They won by 99 points, possibly the highest ever points total in a domestic league in a big division? If you think that was a 'hard' title you're on crack. If you think the titles after Calciopoli weren't easy you're also on crack. We set a still-unbeaten (as far as I'm aware) 17 consecutive wins in 06/07, that's how fucking easy it was.


And you think his French matches are difficult? They might not have finished clear on points as they wanted to, but PSG are STREETS ahead of any of their competition. They have a defender worth more than any striker in the league except Falcao, ffs. How is it even competitive?

The only league titles you can argue about are the last with Inter (with Mourinho, where he did have to play really well to win the title), and the oneo with Milan. I would argue the latter isn't so important - we had Leonardo for a coach in the first one, and despite the first half of the season with Benitez, we still finished 2. That's including Chivu's double-red-card-brain-fart-in-a-week. After that Juventus actually got their act together and finished above Milan.



I'm not taking it away from the league titles, for a lot of them he did still have a HUGE impact on their successes. But it was hardly a league that contained Benitez, Guardiola, Ferguson, Mourinho, and other great managers simultaenously with £300m+ squads at their disposal. Italy 06-> was vastly weakened, Barca when they consistently won the league in the 90s+, and the worlds most uncompetitive league (TM) dont really mean that much to me, sorry to say.


He still gets credit for it, but people holding it up as a banner of excellency should look at themselves. Points for consistency, but not for challenge. There were more competitive leagues in the world then and he didn't feature in any of them.

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 20:03
I swear you dont even watch football.. You certainly dont watch ibra and obviously not barca or madrid. I couldent read past your sentence saying " If you think that was a 'hard' title you're on crack " i had to stop after that, whats the point. You know nothing of what you speak.

That season was a hard race to the end, Madrid was 3 points behind at 96 points. Funny it was just 3 points seperating them in the end and that it was indeed Ibrahimovic who came on and scored the winner for barca in the classico.

I cant take you seriously. Im amazed if anyone really do and i believe most here post for other reasons such as you beeing annoying rather than actually beeing interested in the subject itself (much like me tbf).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaV4GvQTqrA

pencilpal
23 Feb 14, 20:08
Edit:

In a league where 3rd place is 25 points behind 2nd, it's fair to say there isn't much direct competition for the title

Barcelona had a squad FILLED with depth, while Real Madrid's squad was extremely unbalanced (with Pellegrini making his famous quote regarding the futility of possessing the most talented guitarists in the world when you don't have a percussion or a brass section).

To say that Barca struggled to win the title that year with some of the best players in the world (Xavi, Pique, Iniesta, Sergio, Xavi, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Alves etc), and arguably the best coach in the world is ill-considered. Remember that Real crashed out of CL in humiliating fashion to Olympique Lyon.

However, I think that you can boil down this particular debate to a single question: without Ibrahimovic, would Barcelona have lost the league title and fail to progress to the CL semi final? Was he genuinely DECISIVE to the Blaugrana's successes that year?

Browha's argument is understandable to an extent; I've already outlined my primary concern with his definition.

victor_inter
23 Feb 14, 20:24
Guys cmon, this isnt a red and black forum where we quarrel like kids. We have some quality matured posters here, so continue your arguments without spewing expletives please. Both of you have valid points and we shall see this season whether ibra proves his worth when it matters or not. I believe he will cuz he is a phenomenal player and browha eventually will be forced to include ibra amongst the legion of top tier world class players that boasts the likes of messi and ronaldo.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 22:04
I swear you dont even watch football.. You certainly dont watch ibra and obviously not barca or madrid. I couldent read past your sentence saying " If you think that was a 'hard' title you're on crack " i had to stop after that, whats the point. You know nothing of what you speak.

That season was a hard race to the end, Madrid was 3 points behind at 96 points. Funny it was just 3 points seperating them in the end and that it was indeed Ibrahimovic who came on and scored the winner for barca in the classico.

I cant take you seriously. Im amazed if anyone really do and i believe most here post for other reasons such as you beeing annoying rather than actually beeing interested in the subject itself (much like me tbf).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaV4GvQTqrA



Somehow in a league where you can score 99 points, it isn't an easy league to win? You realise most leagues win at 82-85 points, right?

- - - Updated - - -

i mean fuck, 99 points! that's 33 victories of 38 games!

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 22:37
You realize everyone in here know that la liga is a 2 horse race with the occasional dark horse right? So weather or not they both reach 99 or 89 is irrelevant to how easy that particular title was but you allrdy know this..

.h.
23 Feb 14, 22:48
You realize everyone in here know that la liga is a 2 horse race with the occasional dark horse right? So weather or not they both reach 99 or 89 is irrelevant to how easy that particular title was but you allrdy know this..

yeah, so difficult, that barca won it 3 years on the trot....

wicked wizard
23 Feb 14, 23:08
I never took this discussion that serious rellay, but now implying Teddy sheringham was better is 2 far

It seems browha does not watch football its just a game of numbers to him its all stats,stats,stats.

.h.
23 Feb 14, 23:09
LOL if you think I was implying Teddy Sheringham was better... I was illustrating that as an example of 'In spite of', rather than 'but'.

Ibrahimovic is a man full of 'but', and very little 'in spite of'.

Ru4real
23 Feb 14, 23:28
I thought that season was really exciting and it was the closest race for the title it has been since that season in spain.

Perhaps best if you define when league titles should matter so that i who actually watch the games can tell if they are significant of not after all is said n done. Maybe theres a minimum of 4 teams fighting for the title with x amount of games left to play for or something similar.

.h.
24 Feb 14, 00:09
This is turning into a complete waste of time. You're too stubborn to admit that Ibrahimovic isn't on the same level as Messi and Ronaldo, and I'm not going to change my opinion that he isn't until he puts in some good performances in the sort of games I've discussed.


So I fear this is a permanent stalemate!

Ru4real
24 Feb 14, 00:25
Well i dont think either of us had any illusions that we would come to an agreement on the subject at hand but its not like its a complete waste of time. We have found out that you dont watch ibra regularly or even close to it so its easier for me to understand where you are coming from.

Previously i would have said no not on messis level and usually not on ronaldos level either. Currently i think ibra is the best performing player in the world and ahead of both.

Alan
24 Feb 14, 00:54
This is turning into a complete waste of time. You're too stubborn to admit that Ibrahimovic isn't on the same level as Messi and Ronaldo, and I'm not going to change my opinion that he isn't until he puts in some good performances in the sort of games I've discussed.


So I fear this is a permanent stalemate!

You are calling him the stubborn one? What does FIF think of you? http://www.forzainterforums.com/images/fifstyle/awards/Most%20Stubborn%20Poster.png

:awwyeah::yao::trollol:


EDIT:

Some fun stats for statswhores.

http://gyazo.com/b07462e6551b043c433945e34e1cc19d.png

Mål=Goals Matcher=Games played

This is in both National and Club.

Adriano
24 Feb 14, 02:00
monster

Karamja
24 Feb 14, 02:54
This is Ibra after the game yesterday having a chat in tv with teammate Zoumana “Papus” Camara who’s out injured.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1d5usb_ibrahimovic-a-camara-en-direct-sur-bein-sports-tu-es-encore-plus-moche-a-la-television-qu-en-vrai_sport

You gotta love him :D

kido
24 Feb 14, 03:48
Not a world class monster
Fixed :o

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

.h.
24 Feb 14, 09:13
I call your stat an raise you one more

Aleksandrs Cekulajevs, who scored 46 goals in the 2011-2012 season, the same number as Ronaldo that season.

no shit ibrahimovic is going to score loads, the french league is fucking dreadful. Back to my point about me not giving a crap about him winning a title there.

victor_inter
24 Feb 14, 09:49
Samuel eto prime vs ibrahimovic prime, who reigns supreme? Who is better, for me i find eto to be better in big games obviously and he is a phenomenal player to have for the champions league. Conversely ibra would be preferred if a teams wants to dominate domestically. International trophies are indeed more valuable than domestic trophies, so from that perspective etoo wins quite comfortably. However ibra is a better player overall, etoo wont thrive in a team that has mediocre players, ibra can make an average team look impressive so overall i cant split the two, i am going with a stalemate here. Its a bit like federer vs nadal debate here,nadal has a better h2h but roger has more slams etc. Etoo is nadal :lol:, in this case.

Ru4real
24 Feb 14, 13:34
You talk about a league you never watch labelling it dreadfull, how the fuck would you know? Fyi the french league is pretty defensive oriented n prolly harder to score in than the spanish. Psg scored less goals in the league so far than all other leaders of top leagues except serie A.

Its amazing how strong opinion one can have about something one claims himself he know nothing off.

.h.
24 Feb 14, 13:38
You talk about a league you never watch labelling it dreadfull, how the fuck would you know? Fyi the french league is pretty defensive oriented n prolly harder to score in than the spanish. Psg scored less goals in the league so far than all other leaders of top leagues except serie A.

Its amazing how strong opinion one can have about something one claims himself he know nothing off.

Or perhaps its to reflect on the quality of the players? Are you telling me the French league is of better standard than La Liga? Or the Premiership?


By UEFA coefficients they're no better than Italy. When was the last time a French team did well in Europe? Europa OR CL? Before PSG and Monaco, when was the last time a star player moved TO France in the peak of their career? I can only think of people moving *away* - like Ronaldinho, Hazard, etc.

Yeah I wont claim to be an expert on the French League, but if you're telling me it's one of the best in Europe, then theres simply no point having this argument.


This is turning into a huge waste of time. Just stop wasting both of our times now.

Ru4real
24 Feb 14, 13:47
Im telling you the obvious. If you dont watch a player or a league how can you determine the quality of the same?

Considering ibras conversion rate is even better in the cl than the league as well. You r just talking nonsense grabbing at every straw but there are non left. I could atleast respect your opinon (but not share it) if you atleast watch the games/league/player you speak of.

.h.
24 Feb 14, 13:52
Im telling you the obvious. If you dont watch a player or a league how can you determine the quality of the same?

Considering ibras conversion rate is even better in the cl than the league as well. You r just talking nonsense grabbing at every straw but there are non left. I could atleast respect your opinon (but not share it) if you atleast watch the games/league/player you speak of.

I dont have to watch the Azerbaijian league to tell you it sucks... The french league is clearly on the up, but there's a reason why most of the best players in the French national team have traditionally played in Italy or England (for example).

Ru4real
24 Feb 14, 14:05
You dont watch the effin games what kind of meaningfull discussion do you expect to have?

Its ridiculous!

.h.
24 Feb 14, 14:14
You dont watch the effin games what kind of meaningfull discussion do you expect to have?

Its ridiculous!

Says the guy who keeps responding....... I'm not the one who expects meaningful discussion, it's the idiots who 'call me out' every time ibrahimovic scores a goal who apparently do.

L_Tdk
24 Feb 14, 14:24
Samuel eto prime vs ibrahimovic prime, who reigns supreme? Who is better, for me i find eto to be better in big games obviously and he is a phenomenal player to have for the champions league. Conversely ibra would be preferred if a teams wants to dominate domestically. International trophies are indeed more valuable than domestic trophies, so from that perspective etoo wins quite comfortably. However ibra is a better player overall, etoo wont thrive in a team that has mediocre players, ibra can make an average team look impressive so overall i cant split the two, i am going with a stalemate here. Its a bit like federer vs nadal debate here,nadal has a better h2h but roger has more slams etc. Etoo is nadal :lol:, in this case.

There should be a poll, it would be interesting.
Anyway, remember that very often people are carried away by circumstances in their judgments, so now that Ibrahimovic is on fire it's very probable that the majority of people would prefer him; contrariwise, if you had asked this question in 2011, with Eto'o banging in goals, assists and dribblings for fun, then he probably would have been the victor.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, Eto'o takes it.

Ru4real
24 Feb 14, 14:55
No browha thats clear, i think at this point you are just in it for the sake of not loosing the arguement.
I hope that most ppl now realize that you dont even watch ibra or the league you comment on and therefor treat your opinions of the same accordingly.

Regarding ibra vs eto I think it depends on what kind of team you have at your disposal to put either of them in. If its a team thats got a strong attacking midfield it would be a tough choice even for me but in a team that lacks quality in midfield ill take ibra without thinking twice.