Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: The Only Coach...

  1. #1
    Score Icardi Score Nyall's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Nov 07
    Posts
    12,013
    Thanked
    7,847 times
    Fav. Player
    Burdisso

    Canada

    16 FIF Special Ones Forum Supporter Most Stubborn Poster Most Pessimistic Member

    The Only Coach...

    Tonight, after reading a post from n4l, something startling came to me. Of all coaches that I can remember: Cuper, Zaccheroni, Mancini, Mourinho, Benitez, Leonardo, Gasperini, Ranieri, Stramacioni and Mazzari, a period of well over a decade, only one of them has actually tried to be a coach. And that was Rafa Benitez.

    Coaching Inter, is no easy task, from a demanding president, to demanding fans, to a media that will easily submit themselves to "intellectual prostitution" it can hardly be surprising that we've gone through more coaches than any club that has remained in Serie A during the same period (I'm assuming this). Right now as we look dead set to go through another dark post treble season, where everyone's trying to look for answers and solutions to our problems, even with Mazzari (the man some even hailed as our saviour and could even lead us to a Scudetto). I think n4l hit it spot on.

    Mazzarri is really disappointing but not that I didn't expect it. Too much individualism in attack, no systemic methods for creating attacks, still can't hold the ball under pressure, still need to defend in numbers to look decent defensively. Same shit tbh.

    I hope people saw how Juve's attacks were very structured in what they were looking to do. Tons of variations and patterns to their attack. A lot of it didn't work out today, but they were consistently trying it. Lots of balls into strikers feet, 1st striker dummies, balls going wide then back inside to mid then penetrating forward pass e.t.c.

    When we have the ball it's all fricking freestyle. Whatever guarin/ricky feel to do, we do Just like last year, it'll work in some games but it's not a method for creating chances on goal consistently. Especially in those tight games. This is why we failed last year. Our methods were simply haul the ball up to cassano/palacio and hope something happens. Every good attack v Juve was on the counter (nothing new) with ricky dribbling or palacio making amazing diagonal runs. Palacio is subbed and the new kids don't have that kind of intelligence so our attacks stop. Ricky gets tired and he can't go on mazy individualistic runs, so our attacks stop.

    On a POSITIVE note, we have a decent crop of youngsters who should get to play and play often. Olsen, Icardi, Belfodil, Obi, Kova, Duncan. I personally wouldn't buy any more players and demand that Mazzarri be a real COACH (not manager) and make these guys play good football. The only thing stopping us from playing good football is competence in coaching/management.

    I honestly want to see what Ricky can do in a more structured environment where he's coached to use his talents selectively and more effectively. Creativity within the system versus all out improvisation. It's what I wanted to see happen with coutinho also last year under strama, but we're seeing some of it with 'Pool right now. Sadly, doesn't look like that's going to happen here for Ricky. Same for belfodil tbh. Raw, raw talent that needs coaching.
    This is the post in question and the key part of it for me, was where he made the distinction between a coach and a manager which caused me to look back and realize this. Rafa waa the only one here who actually tried to build something beyond the results here. Unfortunately for him (and us) we were all in our post treble high and wanted nothing of it. We couldn't fathom not winning, and not doing it now. We heckled Benitez, and would call him stubborn when he stuck to a system that did not necessarily play to the strengths of our aging players, despite the results not coming. There were also an injury crisis, which many attributed to his training methods and rumors of the locker room turning against him and most importantly, Rafa was replacing his long time rival in Mourinho who had left on an unprecedented and unrecripable high. Things were set against Rafa wrong the start and by the time he left, his sacking was more than justified despite his winning of two trophies. In fact, he pretty much asked for it, with his "Back Me or Sack Me' speech. http://www.theguardian.com/football/...world-club-cup It's clear what Inter did, but what if we didn't?

    The first half of Rafa's 6 month reign, had us playing arguably some of the best football most of us had ever seen Inter play, despite Milito the hero of the previous season going through his worst ever run of form. Our defense began to show leaks. The fortress that had been Lucio and Samuel just 5 months earlier started to show cracks and as I had mentioned earlier, many at the time attributed this, to his playing of a high defensive line, this was later proven to be false as we've suffered defensive issues (and still do) 2 and a half year on. What was key to Rafa's reign though, IMO, was his willingness to use the young unproven players rather than alter his system and play experience, and he didn't just do this for a few games, he did this on a regular basis and even in the Champions League, in contrast, Strama ran his experienced players to the ground every four days even when he knew full well the squad was thin and even when the games became meaningless, and now Mazzari won't even start Primavera players in the pre-season, despite it being obvious that some players are way past it and the youngsters comprehensively outplaying them.

    Rafa's reign marked the only time Coutinho featured on a regular basis, and had he not been sacked, there's little doubt that he would have continued to see football especially with how injury prone Sneijder was. Even with rumors of him being one loss away from being fired, he still stuck to his system, his tactics, and his football this earned him the nickname the The Stubborn One. And with all the pressure on him before he even accepted the position this multiplied ten fold, once the results stopped coming.

    But looking back on his rollercoaster of a coaching reign, I just have to wonder if Rafa was just that good thing you don't miss until long after it's gone...


    and honestly after looking at the first half of this, I really have to wonder how the hell we were able to this then and now can't even string two passes together now.. . sigh
    Best match thread opener ever.

  2. Thanks (7): Doffy, Fitzy, Guney, KevinB, spork, Uncommon, wera

  3. #2
    Fitzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    21 Aug 09
    Posts
    9,954
    Thanked
    15,587 times
    Fav. Player
    Zanetti

    Australia

    Forum Supporter
    That first half against Tottenham was the best football I'd seen us play in years.
    Awaiting the start of our youth project.

  4. #3
    Wallace
    Join Date
    18 Jun 05
    Posts
    11,214
    Thanked
    10,241 times
    Fav. Player
    Wallace
    Old name
    Wallace

    Brazil

    88 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF
    Gasperini also tried to change the way we play, not just Benitez.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
    Wallace

  5. #4
    Score Icardi Score Nyall's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Nov 07
    Posts
    12,013
    Thanked
    7,847 times
    Fav. Player
    Burdisso

    Canada

    16 FIF Special Ones Forum Supporter Most Stubborn Poster Most Pessimistic Member
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
    Gasperini also tried to change the way we play, not just Benitez.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
    He gave in 2 games in..
    Best match thread opener ever.

  6. #5
    Pharaoh's Avatar
    Join Date
    29 Nov 11
    Posts
    6,907
    Thanked
    4,773 times
    Fav. Player
    Kovacic

    Tuvalu

    10 Forum Supporter
    actually he gave in before that lol! During the Supercoppa in the preseason we were winning with his 3 in the back tactic, and then he switched to 4 in the back in the second half and the team lost 2-1 T.T

  7. #6
    Wallace
    Join Date
    18 Jun 05
    Posts
    11,214
    Thanked
    10,241 times
    Fav. Player
    Wallace
    Old name
    Wallace

    Brazil

    88 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF
    Going to back four doesn't mean giving in, the way the team play was still the same, only the numbers changed at the back.

    And plus, he wasn't the one who gave up, our management were the ones who gave up on him. Whether it was reasonable to do so, is entirely up to debate, as we were in the relegation zone.

    After all, what kind of development can we do if we're in Serie B.

  8. Thanks (1): Cal

  9. #7
    Score Icardi Score Nyall's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Nov 07
    Posts
    12,013
    Thanked
    7,847 times
    Fav. Player
    Burdisso

    Canada

    16 FIF Special Ones Forum Supporter Most Stubborn Poster Most Pessimistic Member
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
    Going to back four doesn't mean giving in, the way the team play was still the same, only the numbers changed at the back.

    And plus, he wasn't the one who gave up, our management were the ones who gave up on him. Whether it was reasonable to do so, is entirely up to debate, as we were in the relegation zone.

    After all, what kind of development can we do if we're in Serie B.
    He was never really here long enough to establish anything significant.

    When I meant he gave up, he gave up on his football philosophy after two games. The management didn't give up on him, they never supported him in the first place, same goes for Rafa. Part of this made the decision to sack them even easier.
    Best match thread opener ever.

  10. #8
    Toninu's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Oct 06
    Posts
    9,920
    Thanked
    4,720 times
    Fav. Player
    Walter Samuel

    Brazil

    71 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF
    Don't forget the thrashing we gave Bremen, Rafa definitely improved our game but then injuries caught up to us our players had a World Cup and an epic season a year before. Not to mention how Rafa doesn't get attached to players he has no problem dumping guys who have been in a place for year which isn't nice but it's needed.
    PUT CRESPO IN LGI

  11. Thanks (1): Fitzy

  12. #9
    Ed.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Mar 11
    Posts
    12,717
    Thanked
    9,168 times
    Fav. Player
    Emma Watson

    Tokelau

    69
    The biggest mistake Rafa did was he didn't try to win players' heart.. he approached the players from a wrong direction.
    FC INTERNAZIONALE

    I thought football in Italy had changed, but it seems that a zebra never changes its stripes.
    FAK GOBBY

  13. #10
    might be Deadpool wera's Avatar
    Join Date
    28 Mar 11
    Posts
    17,651
    Thanked
    15,256 times
    Fav. Player
    Bea Arthur

    South Korea

    Like I said, Napoli getting Benitez was the deal of the year in SerieA. He has a better team right now than he had in his first year at Liverpool or first year at Valencia. That doesn't mean he'll necessarly win something this year, but he is building a monster team by the looks of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    If Icardi is ever sold for 110m euros i'll stop watching football and promote Pimp to moderator.

  14. #11
    Guney's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Mar 13
    Posts
    2,064
    Thanked
    3,111 times
    Fav. Player
    CRUZ & CHINO

    Netherlands

    98
    We are gonna get raped by Benitez twice this season. The Spurs match was great to watch but Julio was playing like shit, conceding 3 goals from that




































































    Would love to see that twat play at our team
    Last edited by Guney; 08 Aug 13 at 20:55. Reason: shit my pants
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
    A potential Kovacic sale would completely undo the positive in signing Kondogbia.












    LA GRANDE FIF
    Quote Originally Posted by JJM View Post
    -------------Handoyo#1
    -----fifi#23--------Dylan#25------JJM#5
    Rasha#2------------------------Pajo#55
    ----browha#88--Devious#19--Guney#10
    DomesticatedPimp#9-Verathia#8

    bench: HugoBoss#14,ElDuccio#35,Y&h#11,Wallace#18,militosc ores#22
    ,Lionfap#7,Alan#17,Shaun#16,Fitzy#33,I4E#4,KevinB# 20,Nyall#13,Sokrates#6,#21Uni,crzd#77
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottishInterista View Post
    Guney for president
    so when is this youth project starting




    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    Was just kidding mate. Inter will teach you to take a black dick in the butt and not moaning much, well, maybe alittle bit, but not so much.

    I mean you`ll grow tougher, smarter, gayer, troller and more stubborn.

    Welcome to the Inter world!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visca View Post
    Congrats, you get a drunk post from me (yay autocorrect))
    http://forzainterforums.com/showthre...45#post1191245

  15. #12
    DIN011's Avatar
    Join Date
    10 Apr 09
    Posts
    13,418
    Thanked
    4,907 times
    Fav. Player
    Icardi
    Old name
    Analrapist

    Bosnia Herzegovina

    Most Missed Member
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
    The biggest mistake Rafa did was he didn't try to win players' heart.. he approached the players from a wrong direction.
    Bitch you wasn't with him shouting in the gym
    I'm streets ahead.

  16. Thanks (1): jmaster

  17. #13
    Bergpavian's Avatar
    Join Date
    02 Nov 10
    Posts
    2,087
    Thanked
    1,827 times
    Fav. Player
    Vieri, Baggio

    Austria

    Forum Supporter
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
    Gasperini also tried to change the way we play, not just Benitez.
    I still think that under Gasperini we played the worst football I've ever seen in my years as fan. Our whole team was like a headless chicken.

    But Rafa ... I still think he's a good coach but he wasn't the right coach for Inter. Yet I would like to see him longer at Inter and convince me.

    Edit: No wonder my butt is hurting the last days ... The Analrapist is back!

  18. #14
    skeet's Avatar
    Join Date
    09 Sep 09
    Posts
    4,108
    Thanked
    1,219 times
    Fav. Player
    Javier Zanetti

    Kuwait

    37
    just because rafa was the only real coach who tried (and failed) to play offensively doesn't mean he's the only one who tried to build something, there are many philosophies in football, and fast pace and one touch passing isn't the philosophy that beats the rest, inter became the best team in world because herrera and mourinho focused on building a team around a philosophy of hard work and defensive security

    and while I do agree that both the fans and the management were harsh on rafa, it was his own fault for coming into the club with the completely wrong attitude

    coaching isn't just about tactics, he has be diplomatic and charismatic in order to keep the fans and the club on his side, strama had zero tactical sense but he still had some fans on his side when he finished 9th, rafa didn't even try to get anybody to like him, even when he won a trophy in the last match before the transfer window he chose to call his boss out on international television instead of telling him his plans to fix the club in a private meeting

    basically, trying to build a team doesn't necessarily have to include a good offense and/or young players, just because barca won a treble with a lot of their youth players doesn't mean that every club has to follow that same model to be successful for a long period of time

  19. Thanks (1): qb4ever_2k

  20. #15
    nerazzurri4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Jul 07
    Posts
    5,855
    Thanked
    7,566 times
    Fav. Player
    Mancini

    Trinidad & Tobago

    45
    Sorry for the super ridiculous long post.....

    In response to skeet, the only thing I'd say is that you're comparing apples & oranges. When you have a team that's in the top 5-10 in the world, can attract the best players, and have the money to attract the best players e.t.c, the job of the manager is very different to say, our situation today, which is the polar opposite. We don't have money. We are FAR from being top anything. We can't even attract a lot of good players. Players are running to Fiorentina, Napoli and Roma before coming to us

    So the landscape is very different. It makes no sense looking to Herrera times since things are simply WAY different now. So many non-traditional clubs have money that the game is in general, much more competitive, and more is required just to stay competitive year over year.

    More importantly though is the model discussion you bring about. Yes, I agree that there are many, many different models and that none should really be considered "better" or whatever. That is especially true when we consider tournament formats. Essentially, over a short space of time, it's simply statistical which is "better" or which produces the results on that given day.

    Over a long period of time, statistics will tend to favor the models that know how to create opportunities on goal and/or can be setup in a way to stop teams from scoring. This is longevity and in today's landscape, is much more important than a "one-off" victory. Today you are news; tomorrow you are bust unless you can keep up. From a financial standpoint, it is absolutely CRITICAL that you are in it for the long haul rather than the one-off victory. It is much better to be in CL for 3 years, making 25-30mil a year from UEFA, than to win once, make 50mil and then be out for the next 3 years.

    We won the treble in 2010. It's 2013 and we're a midtable team. Mourinho's job was to win the CL. He got the players he wanted and put them in positions to succeed over the short term. That's the job and he did it. That's also the job of a national team manager. They look at the landscape of players talents and abilities, pick the right ones that will produce the results. Essentially, HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON INDIVIDUAL TALENTS.

    Over the long term though, it's obvious that relying on individual talent is not a sound strategy. Unless you have a GENIUS scout, who ALWAYS pick the right players. Players lose form, chose to move, get old, get injured e.t.c. You might have a couple seasons with bad transfers. That's a guarantee. How do you stay competitive when those things happen? How can ManU stay super competitive over 20+ years? They've seen soooo many eras of great players, come and go, yet still stay near the top almost every single year. They've had times with some mediocre players but still stay relevant.

    THAT is what is we need. During economic times like this, we shouldn't HAVE TO be at 9th fucking place. So how do we stay relevant and competitive always?

    Play sound football that is not reliant on players abilities. Great players make your system better, they shouldn't make the system.

    Nobody says we need to be Barca. Even if our model is to be a defensively sound team playing counter, then we need to ACTUALLY MASTER THAT MODEL. We actually need to defend soundly. Not need great defensive players to play out of their skins, but great defensive principles being practiced, no matter who plays. As a team, know when we're going to press. How. What zones. What to do when the first line breaks down because the opponent penetrated. How to handle overlapping plays. How to handle weak side switches. We shouldn't need to have 8 players in the box + a gk making world class saves to say we have a "good defense".

    We need to attack soundly and know exactly what we're trying to do and how we're going to try to breakdown the opponent. SYSTEMATICALLY. Players should be improvising within the system rather than just creating out of thin air because our team can't transition and has 2 players attacking and 8 players in our half watching them...

    I'll give a quick example of systematic attack. Barca/Bayern/ManU/Dortmund do this excellently and consistently.

    - The first mode of attack is getting the ball to the wide forward, in the offensive 3rd so that he goes on a 1v1 against a defender. *IF* the defender doesn't get beat, or they have 2 players defending, they move onto the 2nd mode of attack.
    - The 2nd mode is based off the principle of defense, where all players compact and compress the field near the ball. So, in the event of a ball moving from L to R or vice versa, the defense has to shift across. When the defense is shifting, they are usually vulnerable to a penetrating pass down the middle. So, if the first mode doesn't work, they pass the ball to an inside midfielder. As soon as the inside midfield gets it, the striker makes a diagonal run behind the defense and the midfield will look to make that pass. Or a diagnoal pass to a straight run. Either way, they are looking to penetrate. If they look for that opportunity and that doesn't work, they move to mode 3.
    - Here, the ball switches all the way to other side. Typically, this switch happens before the defense can shift across completely, leaving the weak side defender with some vulnerability. Once the ball arrives at the winger, the wingback comes speeding up to create a 2v1 situation against the defender.

    If that doesn't work, they move back to mode 2 and keep doing it until something breaks in the defense. Barca is overly patient in the process, whereas a ManU is much more direct. Either way, this method of breaking down the weak spots in defensive systems is engrained in the players and they look for it and execute on it. Then you have great, intelligent players like messi, iniesta, bastian, rooney who improvise by combination play or dribble penetration to create more problems with defensive shape.

    Either way, these are the things we should be coaching our players to do. Method behind our attack and players knowing what to do. Alvarez shouldn't be dribbling 4 players because he has nobody else to pass the ball to and he's hoping to buy some time. He should be dribbling players as part of our strategy to create imbalances in the defense.

    All those things I'm talking about are things that COACHES do on a regular basis, because they HAVE TO. Particularly youth coaches. You can't go sign ibra/drogba so that you can just haul the ball up to them and they score. Or say, I want a DM to run the whole midfield so go sign Makalele. Top teams with money can do that. We aren't a top team with money, so we have to start from fundamentals, which means coaching and means management not interfering asking for wins right away or stating in the media we're chasing scudetto.

    Rafa was a very good youth coach. He's definitely not as good as a manager and was not a fit for our team at all. We all know this. The top in the profession are great managers and great coaches (Peps/Joses e.t.c.).
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In what way is the rivalry with Juventus and Milan different?

    “There is no comparison. On one hand, we have a duel within the city, a constant and direct confrontation. On the other, we have a historical hostility. Sportingly speaking, the real enemy is Juventus.”

  21. Thanks (4): Fitzy, Guney, victor_inter, Vintage

  22. #16
    pencilpal's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Apr 13
    Posts
    2,104
    Thanked
    1,408 times
    Fav. Player
    Javier Zanetti

    Fiji

    In response to N4L:

    Obviously you are correct when you say we need to systematically use a model and flesh out our identity in that way, how individual improvisation on the pitch should be within such a system.

    And this quote stood out of your post:

    Great players make your system better, they shouldn't make the system.
    However, in response to skeet, in saying that Inter's identity is about hard work and defensive security; that was our identity with Mourinho, and it really was the only time we really had a proper identity on the pitch.

    From there, our team has played football without any true tactics. Leonardo's successful tenure as manager was completely dependent on Eto'o's brilliant run of form that season.

    Stramaccioni could occasionally pull a genuine win in the Europa League against (e.g.) Hajduk Split, but against teams in Serie A it was clear we didn't have a successful tactical system.

    In the last three years, whatever playing identity that represented Inter has been lost.

    However, what that means is we should synthesize a system. And in doing so, we should consider our abundance of young talent on loan and in the academy. Bardi, Caldirola, Pasa, maybe Bianchetti, maybe Biraghi, maybe Laxalt, Duncan, Benassi, Olsen, Bessa, Livaja, and Longo.

    I already have an article on the changes that need to occur in management (restructuring the bureaucracy, focus on marketing, youth project), but another step forward is acquiring someone who is (in your own words) a proper manager and coach.

    We need someone who's willing to stay for the long term, an individual who would proudly advocate for integrating our youth into the team. Someone who wants a youth project (ala Rafa) and is willing to stay for more than 5 years.
    Last edited by pencilpal; 09 Aug 13 at 19:12.

  23. #17
    ChillBro's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Jul 13
    Posts
    1,208
    Thanked
    1,426 times
    Fav. Player
    Handanovic

    United States

    God i really hate rafa... just something about him really pisses me off. Still, you're right... we need a good strategy for the future with a clear plan.

  24. #18
    shadowmoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    30 Aug 11
    Posts
    749
    Thanked
    464 times
    Fav. Player
    matrix, bobo

    Malaysia

    i would never forgive rafa (and the whole team of course) for screwing up in the european super cup game against athletico madrid. yeah, i know it's just a 'mickey mouse' cup, but still...

  25. Thanks (2): Guney, thatdude

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •