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Thread: Looking to year 2 W.M.

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    Looking to year 2 W.M.

    This was always a two year project. A veteran coach with a distinctive tactical system and a certain domineering persona, both of which rub many the wrong way (GrateOne?). Definitely had the club's vote of confidence at the start - fat, multi-year deal done and dusted in time for some summer buys. But then the results have been a great disappointment this season. Despite them, I think we've been incredibly unlucky and that the short-term future with WM isnt as grim as most here suggest.

    It has been said that Mazzarri has shown a lack of knowledge of his squad. On the one hand, an outrageous claim, considering WM's infamous attention to detail, but also strangely true. When WM first arrived, he basically started from scratch. Playing for Strama is so different from playing for Mazzarri, both in terms of tactics, but also in terms of culture. It's like night and day. It's the ultimate players' coach vs the super-demanding drill general. Players with different personality types can thrive or fail in such diametric environments and systems. In some ways, such a shock to Inter's core deserves 18 months simply for the dust to settle. The shift in coach, ownership, and culture means we need time to understand out who fits and time to successfully build around them. Better than another spin on the coach's carousel and another year zero.

    The real question is: what players will remain as that core? Only a few obvious choices such as Jesus, Hernanes, D'Ambrosio, Rolando, Nagatomo, Campa, and already it's hard to think of another without real doubt. One article even describes Mazzarri's use of Alvarez as "showcasing" him. (link). Interesting concept. As I've said many times, business is business, and money is money.

    If Thohir is indeed looking at this as a multi-year project, consider how WM's perception of a player's market value impacts the decisions he must make as a coach: Who does he focus on and build his team around? Who does he "showcase" for a transfer? Who does he try to motivate? Defend? Publicly chastise? Bench? Consider that when a coach sees a player as a key part of his future, it might be wise to develop him slowly and deliberately, while ensuring his transfer value doesn't tempt the pencil-pushers in business operations to take the money and run. The opposite is true in defending a mistake like Guarin's. Don't hurt the club's ability to sell the player you wanted to get rid of in January!

    Ultimately, I respect WM for running a tight ship and putting his system above any one player (no matter his popularity on the internet). Sacrifice for the greater good is a fundamental key to group success. I understand that these results can and should make the fans question everything, but what Thohir really needs to figure out is the sense in the locker room of whether WM's project is salvageable. Is there buy-in from the squad? Unfortunately, it's not a clear cut question, but i think WM gets another 6-8 months after we essentially asked him to re-build the culture and identity of a club that he caught in free fall.
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    Score Icardi Score Nyall's Avatar
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    we essentially asked him to re-build the culture and identity of a club that he caught in free fall.
    He caught it in free fall, held it and jumped right into that fall taking the club down with him.

    There's no year 2 for Walter. He's a one hit wonder and will be gone before June.
    ----
    If I'm wrong and Mazzarri stays (God forbid) then we need to look at our core. Which at this stage is nowhere near good enough to challenge Juve, but good enough to make the UCL, ONLY and I repeat ONLY if utilized properly. And for that to happen, Mazzarri or whoever the new coach is, needs to adapt to this team or fuck off with their stupid systems. Even Mourinho came here, tried to change the team to what he knew and had to revert to what the team knew after only a handful of games.

    We don't have to beat Napoli, or Roma or Juventus to finish high in the table, we have to be focused and beat the Catania and Livornos of this league. Once we get a coach that removes his own head so far up his own ass and starts setting us up for optimization over systematization then the latter will start happening again, like it used to , in the past. But if you think this team plus Vidic and a few other signings and Mazzarri's 3-5-2 system based on his Cavani and Hamsik Napoli days is going to lead us there, then I'm afraid I have some bad news.
    Best match thread opener ever.

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    If Im gona want Mazzarri to stay it`d be for the laughs I get from the quality hating posts of Nyall. That goes for Guarin as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyall View Post
    Mazzarri or whoever the new coach is, needs to adapt to this team or fuck off with their stupid systems. Even Mourinho came here, tried to change the team to what he knew and had to revert to what the team knew after only a handful of games.
    Ehh... I dont like the analogy. Mou hardly 'adapted to the Inter way' as he frequently fielded his 4-2-3-1 and tbh his 4-3-1-2 is not so different if Chivu can play LW or LCM or Eto'o/Pamdev can track back. 3 DCM or 2 DCM and wingers who play D is not apples to oranges tactically, and involved mostly the same personnel.

    But most importantly, there was a championship winning system in place before Mou arrived. Not at all the case with WM. He basically has started from scratch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyall View Post
    We don't have to beat Napoli, or Roma or Juventus to finish high in the table, we have to be focused and beat the Catania and Livornos of this league.
    Do you think Strama's Inter were more "focused" than Mazzarri's?
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    Score Icardi Score Nyall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian View Post
    Ehh... I dont like the analogy. Mou hardly 'adapted to the Inter way' as he frequently fielded his 4-2-3-1 and tbh his 4-3-1-2 is not so different if Chivu can play LW or LCM or Eto'o/Pamdev can track back. 3 DCM or 2 DCM and wingers who play D is not apples to oranges tactically, and involved mostly the same personnel.
    Mourinho's 4-2-3-1 was something he used in Europe to give us more width from the 4-3-1-2. It brought us results in the knock out round of Europe but that did not translate well in Serie A at all and we reverted back to a 4-3-1-2 in the league. Mourinho pre-Inter, had been a 4-3-3 guy and when he came here tried that but it didn't work out here. The team just didn't have the personnel to play such a system and instead of trying and trying and trying and trying to convert Stankovic into Lampard, Cambiasso into Essien, Ibra into Drogba, or Samuel into Terry to fit his system,he reverted to what the club knew and the next season formed his Inter, which is a modified version of the previous Inter.

    But most importantly, there was a championship winning system in place before Mou arrived. Not at all the case with WM. He basically has started from scratch.
    But he didn't start from scratch. His system is Napoli's system last year. That's why he wanted Palacio to be Cavani and Kovacic and then Guarin, Hamsik. Starting from scratch would entail him looking at what he had and finding ways to get the best out of his new team, not trying to get your new team to be like your old team.
    We're basically what Napoli would have been without Cavani and without Hamsik.
    - - - Updated - - -


    Do you think Strama's Inter were more "focused" than Mazzarri's?
    Why are you bring Strama into this? He was a rookie coach way over his head. Give Strama's schedule to Mazzarri this season, would he have fared any better? Because given our inability to handle fatigue under Mazzarri, we could very well have been performing worse..
    Best match thread opener ever.

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    Isn't all this just a continuation of the spew poured all over the Mazzarri thread ?
    INTERISTA 4 EVER

    I dont think the formation model counts, its all about the principles and the attitude" - Stefano Pioli


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    Mourinho didn't even use 4-2-3-1 on a regular basis prior to 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 was pretty much tailor-made to the players we had.

    Which is why, he was so great in the way he adjusted himself to the players he had available. 4-2-3-1 didn't even come until post Dinamo Kiev 2nd game, only after that we started using 4-2-3-1 on a regular basis.

    And our 4-3-1-2 was strictly 4-3-1-2, Chivu never played in the LCM to switch from a 3 men midfield to a 2 men midfield. The only time he played as a LW was the away leg against Barca, but that was recognized as a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1. So I don't know what you're on about. We played a lot of games with Motta, Cambiasso, Stankovic (or insert Zanetti for Motta/Stankovic), and that was a true 4-3-1-2.
    Wallace

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    The idea of Mazzarri's second year literally scares me. I'd rather milk a cobra than think about it
    Quote Originally Posted by DM_ View Post
    Then we'll just buy the federation and create our own rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pimpin View Post
    I dont think juventus are willing to sell


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    yeah, exactly.

    We basically did almost legacy signings of Mancini and Muntari when Mourinho first joined - two players we'd chased for a long time - and he signed Quaresma on top of that. He tried to impose a 4-3-3 with Mancini and Quaresma but it failed badly.

    He quickly reverted to a 4-3-1-2.

    The next season with all the player changes, he stuck to a 4-3-1-2, but started to experiment with the 4-2-3-1 as well.. particularly after he signed Pandev.


    Mourinho adapted perfectly to the Inter way - he adapted a lot, Inter adapted a bit. Mourinho is a fantastic tactician, and he knew exactly how to set the team up given the players he had. He would never have done what WM has done, in persisting in a failing formation for so long.

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    I appreciate all the replies, but I think focusing on which formation Moi played at Chelsea might be missing the point of the OP just a tad.

    Quote Originally Posted by I4E View Post
    Isn't all this just a continuation of the spew poured all over the Mazzarri thread ?
    If you're not interested in the thread, simply gtfo, or take your own advice and ignore me. What a useless and antagonistic post. And from a mod, no less. Shame on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian View Post
    I appreciate all the replies, but I think focusing on which formation Moi played at Chelsea might be missing the point of the OP just a tad.



    If you're not interested in the thread, simply gtfo, or take your own advice and ignore me. What a useless and antagonistic post. And from a mod, no less. Shame on you.
    OR rather than replying in a over aggressive manner you could have just said why you feel this deserves a new thread. I actually feel a thread like this makes sense....at the end of the season.

    Also, Shame on him? He asked you a simple question, one which many were probably thinking, but seriously dude. Cool your jets. This isn't the school yard. You don't have to get so defensive all the time
    Quote Originally Posted by DM_ View Post
    Then we'll just buy the federation and create our own rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pimpin View Post
    I dont think juventus are willing to sell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyall View Post
    But he didn't start from scratch. His system is Napoli's system last year. That's why he wanted Palacio to be Cavani and Kovacic and then Guarin, Hamsik. Starting from scratch would entail him looking at what he had and finding ways to get the best out of his new team, not trying to get your new team to be like your old team.
    We're basically what Napoli would have been without Cavani and without Hamsik.
    It doesn't work like that. Yes, he had his system at Napoli, but none of his Inter players, apart from Hugo, had any familiarity to it. That's why the comparison to Mou year 1 is useless. Mou inherited a well-organized, scudetto-winning team. WM inherited a team that finished 9th with no discernible system at all. He needed to rebuild everything from the ground up, tactically, and culturally. He brought his own personality and tactics, for better or for worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyall View Post
    Why are you bring Strama into this? He was a rookie coach way over his head. Give Strama's schedule to Mazzarri this season, would he have fared any better? Because given our inability to handle fatigue under Mazzarri, we could very well have been performing worse..
    Sometimes you compare WM to Strama, so I was surprised you were using "focus" as a criticism/evaluation criterion. Sounds like a Mazzarri-ism to me. I think if there's one thing WM has tried to instill, it's focus/mental toughness.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    OR rather than replying in a over aggressive manner you could have just said why you feel this deserves a new thread. I actually feel a thread like this makes sense....at the end of the season.

    Also, Shame on him? He asked you a simple question, one which many were probably thinking, but seriously dude. Cool your jets. This isn't the school yard. You don't have to get so defensive all the time
    This is the writers section. If someone wants to take the time to write a long post, they should do it in this forum, at the risk of the mods calling it 'spew' apparently.

    You mods are tasked with establishing and maintaining the FiF culture. Some of you should take your responsibilities a bit more seriously IMO.

    "Simple question" my ass

    - - - Updated - - -

    "Do you have a match-report or an analytical article you wish to publish? We are glad to call it spew in here!"


    - - - Updated - - -

    And it 'deserves' its own thread because I wrote an 'analytical article' I 'wish to publish.'



    Again, on topic replies to the OP GREATLY appreciated
    "I don't think drugs are the problem."

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    If opening this thread isnt a bannable offence, Idk what is

    - - - Updated - - -

    If opening this thread isnt a bannable offence, Idk what is

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    His results with Napoli a much stronger team were not very impressive. Mancini was awesome in Italy but bad in Champions not being able to get far in the knock out rounds. WM can't lift the Italian title or get out of group stages of Champions. To get us to that level will require 50 million euro at least to get a striker as good as Cavani and a MF like Hamsik. Both things he was lucky to get/have. He seems over rated to me.

    Problem with the 2 year plan and this guy is that in the summer we can potentially have a huge huge clear out. 10 guys contracts expire. Should we keep any of them? Maybe Cambi(god I hope not but he is the only one that plays). Out Zanetti, Cast, Mundi, Samuel, Milito, Wallace, Mariaga (7)

    questionable Camp, Carrizo, Cambi, Botta, Rano (4)
    Potential sale - Guarin, Alvarez, Johnny, Naga, Kuza, Handa (6)

    So potentially 17 guys on our team might be leaving. 18 if you could Kova that teams seem to want. Fine we have a couple guys that can be promoted like Mbaye, Duncan, Benassi and Bardi but we defiantly aren't promoting 10+ guys to make up for the dudes that are leaving

    What to do about Alvarez, Guarin if a new coach can get them to preform better or sell them. Kova will he play or be sacrificed for a more experienced player. The young guys he has pissed off.

    I want a new coach but if we do keep WM then it should be for a long contract as come next summer we will have a team more in tune with what he wants. He will no longer have an excuse. Tho this 3 in the back bullshit needs to end !! To then give another coach a shot 6 months from now after we drop 50+ million on players(we are getting rid of 10 guys it won't be cheap to replace that) then bitch about the next coach while they cry that they didn't want the shit players ET & WM took to Inter.
    can we stop buying fking MFs!!!

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    You really are desperate for Carrizo to leave aren't you..
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    Quote Originally Posted by crzdcolombian View Post
    I want a new coach but if we do keep WM then it should be for a long contract as come next summer we will have a team more in tune with what he wants. He will no longer have an excuse. Tho this 3 in the back bullshit needs to end !! To then give another coach a shot 6 months from now after we drop 50+ million on players(we are getting rid of 10 guys it won't be cheap to replace that) then bitch about the next coach while they cry that they didn't want the shit players ET & WM took to Inter.
    I definitely agree that we need to think long-term, but another season will be enough for me if we don't get CL or come within a few points of it.

    Re: 3 at the back, many say that we should play 4 at the back to bring us results against shitty sides. Maybe it's true that we could beat these relegation sides by playing 4 at the back and let our creative players work their magic and win 4-2. But if WM's is a long-term plan (which I think it clearly is) then implementing his system is more important than any 3 points. He's not going to change his identity as a coach just to pick up a few extra points. That's part of what got Strama in trouble (or did he even have an identity to begin with?).

    For better or worse, we're already committed to this system IMO. I'm content to give it another mercato to fill out some glaring holes in the squad for WM's system (such as a pivot to replace Kuz/Cambi or some decent WBs) and then see where we are in 12 months.

    But yea, hoping he's gonna switch to 4 at the back is a lost cause is you understand the way WM thinks.
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    i dont understand what the fuck is wrong with Carrizzo. Would you rather have Castelazzi? Or worse, Abbiati?
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  31. #19
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    I would rather have Casillas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guney View Post
    i dont understand what the fuck is wrong with Carrizzo. Would you rather have Castelazzi? Or worse, Abbiati?
    Carizzo is a backup that is not really convincing
    Castelazzi was a stable one before that horible injury
    Abbiati just too expensive and no way he is joining the rival
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