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Thread: What counts as cheating a.k.a. what is diving

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    What counts as cheating a.k.a. what is diving

    We dive, just as any other team. Yesterday, we can all agree, that red card for Cesena's GK was unfair. So, should everything that happened with that dive count as cheating? Answer me these four questions, pls

    1. Does diving count as cheating? Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).

    2. Does that mean we are cheaters because of THAT dive?

    3. If the same happened to Juve or Milan, some would even say that the referee was bought - so, FIFers, is what happened yesterday, considered as cheating or is it just one of the 'means'? I am sure a lot of you would've been pissed off if the same happened to Inter.

    4. Is any kind of diving cheating or just diving for penalties or/and deliberate red cards?
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    Unfair?! It's a fu rule of the game...last man tackle and straight red.
    Like I said harsh but that how it goes.
    Leali grabbed Palacio's leg and straight forward pk.
    Ok Palacio overreacted... But we were denied penalty's before so he made sure we get one this time.
    Cheaters?! Don't make me laugh...cheaters aren't 8th on the stands.
    Divers...everybody dives so no one really dives :mindfuck:


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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    We dive, just as any other team. Yesterday, we can all agree, that red card for Cesena's GK was unfair. So, should everything that happened with that dive count as cheating?
    There is a difference between overreacting like Palacio did and diving. If we're talking diving (which wasn't the case with Palacio as JJM explained), of course that's cheating. Apart from that a bad tackle potentially can ruin someones carreer it's both as bad. If the referee would miss a really bad tackle, a punch or like when JJ elbowed someone, usually what happens is they get banned for one or two games afterwards. The same thing needs to happen if a referee misses an obvious dive. That's the only way to get rid of it, as the way it is now the risk of getting caught and at most get a yellow for it just makes it worth the reward of potentially get a penalty or freekick in good position.

    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    1. Does diving count as cheating? Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).
    Yes it does and it should be changed so that the player get penalized afterwards if the ref misses it. However, Palacio didn't dive on this occation.

    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    2. Does that mean we are cheaters because of THAT dive?
    That wasn't a dive but if/when we dive, yes that is cheating. Every team does it to some extent as the risk of getting caught is worth the "reward". The rules need to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    3. If the same happened to Juve or Milan, some would even say that the referee was bought - so, FIFers, is what happened yesterday, considered as cheating or is it just one of the 'means'? I am sure a lot of you would've been pissed off if the same happened to Inter.
    It has happened to Inter plenty of times with Handanovic getting straight red for similar action. Of course it always seems extremely hard with red AND penalty but as JJM said, that's how the rules goes; last man and goalscoring position. Even Mazzarri said after the game he would want to change that rule and maybe I would too, but essentially I think it's a necessary one.

    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    4. Is any kind of diving cheating or just diving for penalties or/and deliberate red cards?
    Every kind is. Although overreacting is different. It's not ideal but should only be "allowed" if it really was a foul. You can't overreact something which wasn't a foul in the first place, then it's a dive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    We dive, just as any other team. Yesterday, we can all agree, that red card for Cesena's GK was unfair. So, should everything that happened with that dive count as cheating? Answer me these four questions, pls

    1. Does diving count as cheating? Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).

    Not sure on our penalty tbh, but in general; affirmative. That pathetic logic "everybody dives" doesn't justify repeating it.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    2. Does that mean we are cheaters because of THAT dive?
    What happened was an exaggeration from Palacio and a misjudgment from the referee, but it's a one time event that doesn't relate to anything. However, if the standard you're setting is diving as a constant method present in the Italian/South American dogma of winning by all mean necessary then to most the answer would be a Machiavellian no..

    Mazzarri's "We are only missing points" quote falls into that as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    3. If the same happened to Juve or Milan, some would even say that the referee was bought - so, FIFers, is what happened yesterday, considered as cheating or is it just one of the 'means'? I am sure a lot of you would've been pissed off if the same happened to Inter.
    Our track record with the referees doesn't support that accusation. It was a call made once in a blue moon.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    4. Is any kind of diving cheating or just diving for penalties or/and deliberate red cards?
    For me, all diving is cheating whether it's to for a freekick, penalty, sending off an opponent...


    Oh, and no JJM.. saying we were denied in the past doesn't make it right.

    #EthicsBitches

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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    We dive, just as any other team. Yesterday, we can all agree, that red card for Cesena's GK was unfair. So, should everything that happened with that dive count as cheating? Answer me these four questions, pls

    1. Does diving count as cheating? Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).

    2. Does that mean we are cheaters because of THAT dive?

    3. If the same happened to Juve or Milan, some would even say that the referee was bought - so, FIFers, is what happened yesterday, considered as cheating or is it just one of the 'means'? I am sure a lot of you would've been pissed off if the same happened to Inter.

    4. Is any kind of diving cheating or just diving for penalties or/and deliberate red cards?
    1. Diving count as cheating. But there's only really diving when there is no contact whatsoever. If there's contact and the player exaggerate his fall that's not diving. And also the exaggeration happens because referees are stupid and if you don't fall they don't see it. Sorry but really.

    2. Well as we said... that wasn't a dive. But to me the fact of diving once or twice doesn't make you a cheater and one player diving doesn't make a team a "cheater team", lol.

    3. To me it was a problem of the referee, obviously if this had happened to us (and it has happened) it would have bothered us, but meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

    4. I guess diving is always cheating? but there are times when it's worst because it gives you a bigger adventage... I guess...
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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).
    not even worth a reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    We dive, just as any other team. Yesterday, we can all agree, that red card for Cesena's GK was unfair.
    Very retarded ref for bad interpretation of the rules. Pk maybe. Red absolutely no. And yes, that decision affected the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    1. Does diving count as cheating? Palacio dived for a penalty (that also won the game).
    People get hyper-technical about "dive". So because of that, I prefer to use the word "simulate". Palacio simulated for sure. He saw it was possible for contact to be made, so kicked the ball wide, hoped for any contact, then fell over.

    As for cheating, to me, there's shades. Not black and white. I think we can all agree that there's a difference between palacio and robben. Systematic and continuous cheating (robben) is more egregious than one-time offenders or not frequent offenders. Still though, it's a disgrace.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    2. Does that mean we are cheaters because of THAT dive?
    Shades again. There is a fine line between single players simulating or systematic simulating by an entire team. We can all agree there's a difference between Bayern (robben mostly) and barca (multiple players). Also, what really makes a team "cheaters" is not about the successful simulations. It's about the unsuccessful ones and the reaction to those. This is why barcelona are especially hated since multiple players simulate constantly and when unsuccessful, they argue and lobby the ref. That's an egregious cheater.


    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    3. If the same happened to Juve or Milan, some would even say that the referee was bought - so, FIFers, is what happened yesterday, considered as cheating or is it just one of the 'means'? I am sure a lot of you would've been pissed off if the same happened to Inter.
    By the same token, if what happened yesterday happened for Roma or Fiorentina, we wouldn't say the ref was bought. So it has to do with a pattern or whether something appears systematic. Even for Milan, I wouldn't say the ref is bought. For Juve though, obvious.

    Now if over the remainder of the season, we start to get quite a few of these calls, then it will definitely be viewed as cheating and rightly so.



    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    4. Is any kind of diving cheating or just diving for penalties or/and deliberate red cards?
    All simulation is cheating in my books. It's all a disgrace. But some are worse than others.
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    In what way is the rivalry with Juventus and Milan different?

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    Clear opportunity for a goal.Last man tackling. Red card.No other option for the ref.

    Rules are rules...


    To hard to understand?!

    and he got 3 games ban. 1 foc committing the offence and 2 for insulting the ref.

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    There's no more "last man" in fifa rules. It's about denying a clear goal scoring opportunity. If you watch the incident, palacio kicks the ball away from the goal towards the right and shortly after he was "fouled', Cesena already had a defender on the line. It was not a clear goal scoring opportunity so should not have been a red at all.

    FIGC was defending rocchi for juve-roma performance ffs. Gave adriano 5 match ban for diving e.t.c. You really can't use them as justification.

    - - - Updated - - -

    fifa rule....

    "denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick"

    - - - Updated - - -



    Cesena defender on the line in a split second PLUS second defender would've got to the ball before Palacio anyway. Not an obvious goal scoring opportunity and not moving towards the opponent's goal = no red card.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In what way is the rivalry with Juventus and Milan different?

    “There is no comparison. On one hand, we have a duel within the city, a constant and direct confrontation. On the other, we have a historical hostility. Sportingly speaking, the real enemy is Juventus.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by nerazzurri4life View Post
    If you watch the incident, palacio kicks the ball away from the goal towards the right and shortly after he was "fouled

    It was not a clear goal scoring opportunity so should not have been a red at all.
    are you kidding me or blind?!

    see the photo again then...




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    I said this in the match thread during the game and I'll say it again.

    There was definite contact, without the GK being anywhere near the ball. Foul = penalty.

    Did Palacio make a meal out of it? Definitely? Is it cheating? Not in my eyes. Would I call, say, Del Piero (welcome to 2007) a cunt if he did it? Fuck yeah, I'd call him a cunt regardless. Would I call him a cheater? Not in this case, no, because there was clear contact.

    The red is justifiable if the ref believes that the foul stopped a clear goal-scoring opportunity. To me, it was a red. To others, it seems that it wasn't. Would I be pissed if this happened to us, and Handa got red-carded and we conceded a penalty? Yes. Would I feel cheated? No.

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    Handa vs Torino last season.

    similar situation. It's a harsh decision but he got red because it was a clear goal scoring opportunity.

    Yesterday it was even more obvious than Handa's intervention.

    I think I've said everything regarding this matter...

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    I put the video there as refresher.

    How could it be a clear goal scoring opportunity? Palacio pushed the ball wide right (wider than the frame of the goal) and Cesena has a defender on the line and another defender who would be pressuring (shoulder to shoulder) palacio for the ball he pushed wide right. Without the gk "contact", it doesn't appear to be a 100% guaranteed goal to me.

    To me, it's ridiculously obvious. The video is clear cut. Ce la vie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You don't see how those 2 situations are different? Without Handa contact, who is going to stop Cerci from scoring?
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In what way is the rivalry with Juventus and Milan different?

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    99% of the fouls GKs make in the box are red and penalty. Palacio did simlate, he fell like he was shot, BUT, it was clear foul and red. Leali dived into his feet, no matter if it was clear chance on goal or not. That's a pen and debatable red.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karamja View Post
    Yes it does and it should be changed so that the player get penalized afterwards if the ref misses it. However, Palacio didn't dive on this occation.
    lol there's a rule for 2 match ban when dived in serie A. Pity it only gets used on Inter's main strikers (and some 4th strikers on other teams).

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    I believe that given the fact that I'm apparently the only mexican in this page I should have the last word and say that it was a penalty (sí era penal). (?)


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    Like N4L said there is no black or white answer. Owen recently said he was fouled but didn't go down. So he asked the ref and ref said you have to dive to award the free kick/Penalty (I think ref was Collina). In the next game he felt the contact and dived, he won the penalty against Argentina.

    Even in Premier league it happens a lot. When the player is fouled if he tries to stay on the feet and loses balance and ball he won't get the decision. If the player goes down for slightest of contact they get the decision.

    Also fans use pathetic excuse to defend their team saying there was a contact. Not every contact is a foul, it's a contact sport. So if the foul makes the player lose advantage then it should be called as a foul but players will never get decision unless they go down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerazzurri4life View Post
    I put the video there as refresher.

    How could it be a clear goal scoring opportunity? Palacio pushed the ball wide right (wider than the frame of the goal) and Cesena has a defender on the line and another defender who would be pressuring (shoulder to shoulder) palacio for the ball he pushed wide right. Without the gk "contact", it doesn't appear to be a 100% guaranteed goal to me.

    To me, it's ridiculously obvious. The video is clear cut. Ce la vie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You don't see how those 2 situations are different? Without Handa contact, who is going to stop Cerci from scoring?
    Hmm. I agree with N4L here – with the benefit of replay, you can see that Palacio takes the ball farther away from the goal and lets the ball get a meter or two away before Leali touches him. I don't think it was a clear goalscoring opportunity – had Palacio stayed up/had Leali not touched him, Palacio would've had the ball further from goal at a poor angle for shooting with two defenders on the line.

    But I can also see how in real time a referee would've thought that was a red card.

    As for the subject matter at hand, I think diving is wrong. But I also think that some other violations of the rules (tactical fouling) deserve the same level of scrutiny as diving.

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