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Thread: José "The Special One" Mourinho

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    Quote Originally Posted by n4l View Post
    And ancelotti won 0 league titles with Real, even if he receives massive reinforcements.

    And ancelotti won 0 CLs with PSG, even if he receives massive reinforcements.


    I really don't understand these standards to judge coaches these days. Ancelotti is a legend coach. Mourinho is a legend coach. Pep is already legend coach. NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE WINNING THE CL. Not winning a single game, or not winning the CL in a few years means nothing and doesn't take away from a coach's career.

    Ancelotti won 3CL in his entire coaching career; over 20 years. Mourinho has 2 in almost 20 years. Are they failures because they didn't win every year, even though they got 'massive reinforcements'? That literally makes no sense at all.
    Of course, it makes no sense!
    My commentary was an answer to Brehme! He is one of the staunch supporters of Mourinho!
    The only problem he shows only the part of the picture who helps his arguments but ignores the rest!
    This is nothing: but in Conte thread he tried to show that Jose was special with the EPL title in his second Chelsea stint, but Conte was vulgar in the same circumstances.

    You are fully correct in what you described!

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrei View Post
    Of course, it makes no sense!
    My commentary was an answer to Brehme! He is one of the staunch supporters of Mourinho!
    The only problem he shows only the part of the picture who helps his arguments but ignores the rest!
    This is nothing: but in Conte thread he tried to show that Jose was special with the EPL title in his second Chelsea stint, but Conte was vulgar in the same circumstances.

    You are fully correct in what you described!
    I'm sorry but you have entirely missed the point repeatedly, since you insist upon it, if you think I am praising Mourinho for a louzy PL title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt0411 View Post
    Change of topic but can you believe there are people right now saying that if VAR was available in 2010 Barca would have knocked us out because Bojan’s goal would have stood.

    Bitch if VAR was available in 2010 Thiago wouldn’t have been sent off after 15 minutes and we would have probably went on to beat them at their stadium as well
    Milito was also ruled offside when he was actually onside and through on goal. There was no way his was missing that shit, just sayin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howl View Post
    Milito was also ruled offside when he was actually onside and through on goal. There was no way his was missing that shit, just sayin.
    One of our goals in the 1st leg (the double-header) was offside though. Mistakes here and there, but we definitely deserved getting through.

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    The standard of evaluating coaches is coaches have to come to do the most arduous work in the industry, win a CL with Inter.

    Mourinho has done it, and even winning a treble simultaneously.

    And therefore Mourinho is the best and the rest are garbage.

    Especially Barca/Madrid/<insert top clubs> coaches, they win because of cheating and a good system and squad, never mind who built them, it’s irrelevant.
    Wallace

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHM1605 View Post
    One of our goals in the 1st leg (the double-header) was offside though. Mistakes here and there, but we definitely deserved getting through.
    The Barcelona goal at the Camp Nou was as offside if you wanna play that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n4l View Post
    And ancelotti won 0 league titles with Real, even if he receives massive reinforcements.

    And ancelotti won 0 CLs with PSG, even if he receives massive reinforcements.


    I really don't understand these standards to judge coaches these days. Ancelotti is a legend coach. Mourinho is a legend coach. Pep is already legend coach. NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE WINNING THE CL. Not winning a single game, or not winning the CL in a few years means nothing and doesn't take away from a coach's career.

    Ancelotti won 3CL in his entire coaching career; over 20 years. Mourinho has 2 in almost 20 years. Are they failures because they didn't win every year, even though they got 'massive reinforcements'? That literally makes no sense at all.
    Agree 100% i never understood people calling mou a failure at RM cause he did not win the CL like wtf?

    Imho in a competition like the CL there s also a lot of luck involved, a bad call, a injury to a key player, heck a individual mistake by a player might be all it takes for your team to be out of the competition and in order to claim victory you not only need skill but also lady luck on your side.

    That being said i think pep not reaching the semis once with City is a bit disappointing, which by the way should not take anything away from him being great coach.
    Which matches do you feel more, those with Juventus or Milan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adriano@10 View Post
    Agree 100% i never understood people calling mou a failure at RM cause he did not win the CL like wtf?

    Imho in a competition like the CL there s also a lot of luck involved, a bad call, a injury to a key player, heck a individual mistake by a player might be all it takes for your team to be out of the competition and in order to claim victory you not only need skill but also lady luck on your side.

    That being said i think pep not reaching the semis once with City is a bit disappointing, which by the way should not take anything away from him being great coach.
    But you see how that works right? It's always a moving scale that people use as a 'negative' on a coach. Jose made semis with Real twice and people said it's not enough, failure etc. Pep made quarters with City and it's not enough. With Bayern, Pep made semi's 3 consecutive times and it's a failure. The scale continually moves where ultimately, if you don't win, it is a failure.

    So no, to me, it's not disappointing. That's football. There's other top coaches and players and the sport is competitive. Which de-facto means, you cannot win all the time.
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    Guardiola "failed" at Bayern because they had made the final 3 times out of 4 tries before he went there. He had failed to reach that target and he allegedly was removing a strong card from the main competition, which was his Barcelona. And they reached the CL final without him in 2015, while Guardiola did not.


    I agree that it's silly to call this a failure, but the goalposts aren't moving. The expectation defines success and failure. Leicester not winning the championship in 2016 would have not been considered Ranieri's failure. It'd still be a success if they ended up top 4 or even top 6.

    If Spalletti was expected to win the league, he has failed. But he has been instructed to reach the Champions League. Succeeded in the first season, even if it was a dramatic finale, and on par to reach it again this season. Won't really call him successful, but he's not really failing isn't he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brehme1989 View Post
    Guardiola "failed" at Bayern because they had made the final 3 times out of 4 tries before he went there. He had failed to reach that target and he allegedly was removing a strong card from the main competition, which was his Barcelona. And they reached the CL final without him in 2015, while Guardiola did not.


    I agree that it's silly to call this a failure, but the goalposts aren't moving. The expectation defines success and failure. Leicester not winning the championship in 2016 would have not been considered Ranieri's failure. It'd still be a success if they ended up top 4 or even top 6.

    If Spalletti was expected to win the league, he has failed. But he has been instructed to reach the Champions League. Succeeded in the first season, even if it was a dramatic finale, and on par to reach it again this season. Won't really call him successful, but he's not really failing isn't he?
    I agree with you 100%.
    At Bayern wasn't a failure. He was knock-out in semis by Real, Barca and Atletico. Atletico on paper was weaker than Bayern, but not forget that Atletico made 2 finals in than span. None said it was a failure.

    At City smells different. In 3 years he was knock-out bay Monaco, Liverpool and Tottenham. 3 teams who invested way less money than City. It's a frustration and is understandable.

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    There are a lot of shades of grey between black and white. You can fail to win, but not be a failure, just like you can lift a trophy but not necessarily be a success.

    So far, guardiola imho lies kind of halfway. He has built a team which steamrolls most of the opponents in premier league (though this season it will go down to the wire), but what he has achieved in champions League with City is VERY far from success.

    With those kind of investments, it is a legitimate expectation to see him get at least a semifinal in three years.

    I watched a video on YouTube yesterday (it was on "tifo football" channel iirc), where they analyzed his teams in champions League knockout stages, compared to the national league and group stage of champions: they claim guardiola "overthinks" in knockout stages, changing too much in the game plan and the starters.

    I tend to agree with them and imho it's not just about tactics: every change carries psychological effects (either positive or negative), which is often overlooked in football, despite being a crucial factor.
    My username has nothing to do with the player of liverpool fc, it is a reference to an Italian novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n4l View Post
    But you see how that works right? It's always a moving scale that people use as a 'negative' on a coach. Jose made semis with Real twice and people said it's not enough, failure etc. Pep made quarters with City and it's not enough. With Bayern, Pep made semi's 3 consecutive times and it's a failure. The scale continually moves where ultimately, if you don't win, it is a failure.

    So no, to me, it's not disappointing. That's football. There's other top coaches and players and the sport is competitive. Which de-facto means, you cannot win all the time.
    Again i agree on the fact that not wining should not equal failure. And like i said i think it s hilarious when people blame coaches for only reaching semis/finals and not winning it since there are many factors out of the hands of a coach that will determine wether you lift the cup or not.

    That being said i think it s fair game to say it was disappointing from pep that in 3 years he never passed the QFs, i mean he always had a top 4/5 team and it s not just one try but 3 in which he failed. We have a WC coach arguably the best with a WC squad and in 3 attempts he does not make it past the QF thats kind of below expectations.

    ALso again this does not mean he is not doing a great job at city cause they are most likely playing the best football in the history of their club.
    Which matches do you feel more, those with Juventus or Milan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCBarca View Post
    Best response is merely to see that Ajax team that outplayed but lost to Mou in the Europa Finals and then hire a new coach, invest a comparably paltry amount to Mou and over those next 2 seasons one team inspired fans around the globe while poised to make the CL Finals. Guess which coach did piss poor by comparison with a bag of unlimited cash?
    Guardiola? Who spends even more money than Mourinho only to get knocked out in the 2nd round or maximum QF’s every season. He is also the exact opposite of Ajax. Another footballing cancer.
    Spoiler: text 

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    At least Guardiolas teams fail because one CB horribly gave away the ball twice, not because they are clueless in attack like Inter. At least it was good tie to watch and if a club wants to spend millions for him in transfers for a club that has been failing in CL for years, they will try to win it just like Chelsea did not so long ago.

    I feel like Guardiola achieved more at City and was more consistent than Mourinho at United. Do you guys really want Mou here when he spent so much money but wasn't meeting expectations? We are a different club than Real, Chelski or United, we do not have money to spare. So Guardiola at least has a winning mentality and consistency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    At least Guardiolas teams fail because one CB horribly gave away the ball twice, not because they are clueless in attack like Inter. At least it was good tie to watch and if a club wants to spend millions for him in transfers for a club that has been failing in CL for years, they will try to win it just like Chelsea did not so long ago.
    That's absurd.
    Guardiola's City has conceded 6 goals in the knockout stages (in 2 games) in his first season.
    Guardiola's City has conceded 7 goals in the knockout stages (in 4 games) in his second season. Only one clean sheet vs Basel and conceded 5 in 2 games to Liverpool.
    Guardiola's City has conceded 6 goals in the knockout stages (in 4 games) in his third season. Four of which in one game.

    Can you really put the blame on one defender every time? If that's the case, we could put all the blame all the time on one defender.

    I'm even going to play fair and not put Mourinho's similar statistics with Real Madrid in the knockout round, because that's Mou's priority. Guardiola's priority is to hold possession and score goals. The more possession you have, the more likely you are to give the ball away and the more likely to be caught off guard in defence since you're trying to bring the game to your opponent.

    It's more of Guardiola's philosophy than anything else. You can't say it was Stones' fault, Otamendi's fault or Laporte's fault. They are instructed to play this way and this is a side effect.

    But you know what I'm gonna do. Let's compare Real Madrid vs Man City offensively in the knockout rounds of CL, Mourinho vs Guardiola. Do I need to remind you that before Mourinho took over at Real Madrid they hadn't seen a quarter final since Cambiasso was there?

    2010-11: 10 goals in 6 games.
    2011-12: 17 goals in 6 games.
    2012-13: 12 goals in 6 games.

    vs

    2016-17: 6 goals in 2 games.
    2017-18: 6 goals in 4 games.
    2018-19: 14 goals in 4 games.


    How do these compare?

    Mourinho: 2.16 goals per game.
    Guardiola: 2.6 goals per game.

    Sure, Guardiola's teams scored more, but they went home earlier. Up to the quarters we have this for Mourinho's Real Madrid:

    2010-11: 9 goals in 4 games. [only 1 conceded for the record, whereas Guardiola in his first season scored and conceded as many in 2 games and then went home]
    2011-12: 13 goals in 4 games.
    2012-13: 8 goals in 4 games.

    Giving an average of 2.5 goals per game, very little shy of Guardiola's 2.6 goals. Apologies that Mourinho has not been knocked out in the first round to give a more fair result.

    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    I feel like Guardiola achieved more at City and was more consistent than Mourinho at United. Do you guys really want Mou here when he spent so much money but wasn't meeting expectations? We are a different club than Real, Chelski or United, we do not have money to spare. So Guardiola at least has a winning mentality and consistency.
    Guardiola inherited a CL semi finalists, Mourinho got a team that was in disarray. How can you compare the two? And how can you talk about consistency?

    And did Mourinho really not meet expectations? What were those? To win the league with the 6th club of England who had failed to win more games than they had won? (18 wins, 20 games without a win).

    And how exactly is Guardiola meeting expectations? He barely finished top 4 (3rd, 3 points ahead of 5th place) in his first season. And won nothing.
    He won emphatically in the second season as Chelsea with Conte had imploded, Liverpool and Tottenham were stagnant and the only thing that changed was that Jose Mourinho had made Manchester United 2nd in the league table, something they had forgotten what is like since Alex Ferguson was around. And no one will argue that City is not the best team in England. But it already was the most expensive side when Guardiola took over and several dynamics had changed to allow this.
    Man Utd did not build on their 2018 success, Tottenham is being Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea have no clue of what they are doing but they have found salvation in the Europa League, while Liverpool is the only challenger and they have given up a significant gap in the table. It shouldn't be Guardiola's season if Liverpool didn't choke once more. Now they are hoping that City chokes in the next couple of games.

    Add to that Guardiola never reached what the previous manager at City had achieved in the Champions League. Man City had already won the league and their owners wanted someone to deliver in the CL. This is like us hiring Mourinho back in 2008 and expecting to do better in the CL and not reaching the quarters at any point under him in 3-4 seasons and people be like "at least he's challenging for the league" and brand it as a success. Nope, doesn't work this way.

    As for Man Utd, no top 3 finish since 2013 until Mourinho came and got them 2nd.
    No European trophy since 2008 until Mourinho came and won on his first season.
    Also won a domestic trophy, while reaching another final. Van Gaal had won the FA Cup the year before, of course, but Man Utd being in domestic cup finals multiple times within 2-3 seasons was something not seen since the late 2000s.

    You can argue that the Man Utd fans wanted to see a different philosophy and they'd be correct. He was never a good fit. Man Utd is a marketing colossus, not a normal football club. They want to do things in their own style otherwise they lose interest. They are far happier reaching 6th place playing the way they are under Solksjaer than reaching 2nd place with Mourinho. They also have a habit of forgetting who delivers them trophies. I'm pretty sure most neglect that even van Gaal won one, ending a 6 year drought.

    If you want to compare:
    Guardiola at Man City- 3 trophies (1 PL and 2 League Cups)
    Mourinho at Man Utd- 2 trophies (1 EL, 1 League Cup), in less time of course.

    And people love to say that Mourinho's Europa League vs Ajax was not the fair result. Does it really matter though? Man City won the League Cup on penalties this season.

    The only thing that makes Guardiola stand out is that a) he gets to pick his players, b) he has the largest transfer budget in the world and c) i) his football is preferrable to people with low attention spans, ie the majority, while ii) most people are casually watching the sport so playing to win is a lost art that only a few possess these days. Mourinho is one, Simeone is another. Conte is also another one of these. Most hyped coaches these days don't play for the win but for the tv rights and tourist tickets. Everybody loves to talk about "good football" and "wonderful football", but when you ask them what is that no one can really answer.

    Football is about winning. You can praise a losing team if they deserve praise for their effort, but at the end of the day all that matters is winning. And obviously winning fairly. This is where side effects like Juventus and other parasite teams come into force and think that "winning" their way, the "by any means possible" deserves merit and credit.


    If a new manager comes at Inter and makes us perennial semi finalists, I wonder if people will claim that he has failed because he never made the next step there. And we have an even longer drought than Real Madrid's, and much fewer participations too.

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    I was talking about United Mourinho, everything else is not comparable right now.

    I'm sorry that I made you write such a long post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wera View Post
    I was talking about United Mourinho, everything else is not comparable right now.

    I'm sorry that I made you write such a long post.
    I'm more sorry that you're wasting a lot of people's time and not even bothering to read their posts, because you obviously missed half of it that refers to Mourinho at Man Utd vs Guardiola at Man City.

    But you're a typical PL fanboy with limited attention span, so you're forgiven.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxXC-NdtDk4
    minute 23-24 talk about Inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by brehme1989 View Post
    But you're a typical PL fanboy with limited attention span, so you're forgiven.
    Honestly I realised my attention span has decreased after an extended period of time watching Inter.

    What’s my approach in stopping the ever decreasing attention span? Stops continually watching this team.

    Give it a try wera, personally for me, this is a cure, it might work for you as well.
    Wallace

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