Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Where did football go?

  1. #1
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF

    Where did football go?

    I'm creating this thread as it's something that "burns" today's football, and I couldn't find a recent similar topic. The point is simple. Football has gone downhill but due to marketing but since it's become a product, the demand has risen! People have become sheep in football as well. You tell them Heskey is the best striker in Europe, half the world believes that at the same second. You tell them that the English league is the best, they believe it and start watching English football.

    Those who followed football since the mid 90s at least know what I'm talking about. Probably this is the outcome of the Bosman rule?(I'll come back to this since FIFA will abandon it after the South African World Cup as they declared) Was it due to happen? Ever since the establishment of football, there have been various eras. 1950s it was all about Real Madrid, then Eusebio with his Benfica, Herrera with his Inter, then attack-minded Celtic, followed by Ajax etc. It is not hard to tell that we are going through an English domination era, just like the early 80s. That's not much of a problem for football fans. What the problem is, is that teams lack talent. We are in a world that considers Cristiano Ronaldo the best player in the world, even if imo he wouldn't make thestarting lineup in top teams back in the late 90s, or at least he would have been one of eleven and not the player to watch. Ever since the "fall of Ronaldo(fenomeno)", I can honestly say that I have not seen players replace the former best adequately. I used Ronaldo as back in 2005 or 2006 that he became a joke due to his excessive weight, the only player that can claim a place in football's hall of fame(talentwise) is Lionel Messi.
    There were times where players like Batistuta, Vieri, Crespo, Veron, Djorkaeff, Zidane, Del Piero, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Cantona, Stoichkov, Bierhoff, Figo, Klinsmann, Matthaus and many others that have no one to resemble them roamed the football fields. Players that were recognised for being versatile, tireless etc like Simeone, Rui Costa, Cocu, Davids, the de Boer twins would now be considered among world's best, while back then they were simply very good. Point is that with today's lack of talent, very good players are considered world's best and players that are above average are portrayed as top class(eg Lampard). What is it that ruined football? And please don't tell me that nothing's wrong. Look at the quality of past international competitions, and look at them now. Teams lack superstars they had in the past.

    Is the Bosman rule to blame? Ever since the introduction of this, people(including fans) started to think more about money than about the sport. Did this demotivate players from playing their best, or is it completely another thing. Money catalysed the shift of domination far too rapidly I believe. It made teams with top players like Lazio, Roma, Parma, Fiorentina and some others weaker due to debts, and gave the English too much economic power. I am of the opinion that football in England did become stronger over the years, and smaller teams did improve, but it's still not top level football that they play. Even financially torn Italian and German football provide better football in their games in my view. Bosman rule made footballers more free to move, but it made football more money dependant. I'm not sure of how many of you heard this, but Blatter said he will dismiss it when Ireland agrees with the other 26 Eu members on it. That will make 6+5 effective after a few years time, and probably football will be somehow restored, but it'kll be still about the money in places like England. Overall, as it seems, I'm of the opinion that money ruins talents. Big teams poach young stars too early, before they are ready to play at big stage, and also smaller teams cannot improve and thus competition is less.

    If you are still finding it difficult to agree, just think of who today's top players are, and who it was back in the 90s, or back in the 80s. Out of every possible list, here are only a few that would make it in past generations, and probably only a few of the past players that wouldn't make on our time.

    Upon thinking on this, which I do quite a lot during football matches, I had the idea that I was too sentimental on the 90s era as I was more happy to watch games and it was my first memories of football, and I also don't like football's present. But I had many conversations about it, and people that actually followed back in the 90s(at least) agree 100% on this.

    Sorry about the long post

  2. #2
    Dylan's Avatar
    Join Date
    20 Jul 08
    Posts
    22,868
    Thanked
    20,603 times
    Fav. Player
    Walter Samuel

    Ireland

    13
    Woooooooo.....That took some reading, my eyes hurt now,
    Well I cant say much since i was born in 90's but I do agree
    Quote Originally Posted by Pimpin View Post
    you can all go fuck your mohters, just my 2 cents.

  3. #3
    Handoyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    04 Mar 04
    Posts
    24,674
    Thanked
    5,694 times

    Indonesia

    32 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF Most Important Member
    Pretty soon, it's gonna be the freaking WWE

    By the way, shouldn't the thread title be "Where is football going?" (Or something like that, in future tense)

  4. #4
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF
    You can change it if you want. I spent more time figuring out what title i'd give it than actually typing everything down, and still don't like it :p

  5. #5
    Hasan's Avatar
    Join Date
    14 Jul 05
    Posts
    6,172
    Thanked
    2,392 times
    Fav. Player
    4 & 10

    Bosnia Herzegovina

    35 10 years of FIF
    I can comment from ex-Yu point of view.

    In 90 we had extremely talented generations but general society was like that. Work, work and work. I bet that Šuker didn't play Play Station when he was 8 years old, he played football outside all day long. I played football, basketball, tennis, volleyball, every sport on this planet all day long.

    And than is normal when you play something from 5-15 (ten years) and if you have some natural talent that you will be destroying on real football field with real ball and with right shoes.

    I played on field with a lot holes, stones, I played on road where is my house, it's little steeply. I played on cement. And what's interesting we didn't have Adidas,Nikes shoes, shirts. We had normal T-shirts and then our mothers would stitch some numbers on that.

    But when you learn to control the bad ball, when you play without shoes, on a steeply, holing pitch, when you learn to fall on cement and continue to play with bold on your knees than you have chance in football, than you have chance in life generally.

    Now, I have kid in my house and when his Nike ball goes down on that steeply road around my house he would like to have one of Sony'y joysticks to bring her back. He don't have imagination at all. I made a basket behind my house but he couldn't play because he don't know where is free throw and where is three point line (and when I painted lines than it costed me 40 euros to buy basketball shoes because he can't play basketball in football shoes), he can't play tennis because there is no net etc.

    Main problem is that sport was drog before couple a decades, best way to bring adrenalin up and now there is so many unhealthy things for children that only crazy ones playing all day.

    Pure example was Savićević, they saw him around his building how he dribbles his friends. Some coach saw that and said to him: come to train in club and repeat that want you doing here. It was more than enough.
    ... “Every time I see Walter Mazzarri’s Press conferences I have this doubt: Is he really such an idiot or does he just think we all are?”

    Parma team manager Sandro Melli

  6. #6
    Handoyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    04 Mar 04
    Posts
    24,674
    Thanked
    5,694 times

    Indonesia

    32 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF Most Important Member
    Nice story, Hasan.

  7. #7
    jamsieboy86's Avatar
    Join Date
    05 Feb 09
    Posts
    1,355
    Thanked
    43 times
    Fav. Player
    Zanetti!

    Ireland

    65
    I'd have to disagree with most of what your saying the players now are every bit as talented as the ones you mentioned from the 90's. Players like Djorkaeff, Veron, Vieri and Bierhoff are not near as good as Ronaldo, Torres, Gerrard and even Ibra.

    Players these days are under so much pressure and scrutinised constantly, way more than players from the 90's.

    I'd argue that there is more world class players now than there was than, thats why its harder for individuals to stand out, whereas in the 90's there were only a few in the top echelon so they were more noticable.

    Saying teams don't have superstars anymore is just nonsensical, top teams now have 3 or 4 superstars, whereas in the past they had 1 or 2 max. Look at Madrid from earlier this decade they had 6 possibly 7, way more than the 80's or 90's. Look at Madrid now, they have 5 or 6.

    As for your theory that only a few players from now would last in other era's, I think the opposite is true. Players now are faster and stronger whilst still retaining the skills. I think players from past era's would find it more difficult to adapt in the modern era.

    I think your just being over sentimental. Your being blinded by nostalgia from your childhood, your not looking at things objectively. The only part of your arguement which I think is valid is the poaching of young talent by big teams before they develop. Every other point you made you managed to get it completely the wrong way around.

  8. #8
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF
    Well, I still don't see many world class players. You can include many, and it can be argued that they are "world class", at least in this poorer football "world".

    Players like Cristiano Ronaldo would not have place in most people's dream team ten years ago. And Gerrard is definetly no better than Philip Cocu, who was never considered a top player, but somewhere in the thereabouts.

    As you come from Ireland(which is influenced by the UK), it comes to no surprise that you have such opinions. Pail Ince and Steve McManaman are the best players that England has produced in the last twenty years, but it's players like Lampard and Gerrard that get the claim, despite being far inferior. The status quo is leaning on the British side, so they wanna promote their "products". Fair, but not part of the truth. And since the British football is the one that dominates in the last few years, it's logical that it's followers will say it's better than Italia of the 90s

    And please don't make me post the names that featured in various teams of Europe and compare them with today. In fact, only the English league has improved a bit, and that's because of imported players. In the 90s, you had 4-5 teams with the better players, 5-6 teams that were average, and 10 teams with butchers and lumberjacks. I really wanna see how the end of the Bosman rule will make the Premier League look like. Probably get back it's 90s taste! And imo, the Bosman rule helped to the "destruction" of football, as it made most good players play in the same teams, rather than have competition.

    So my friend, despite accepting the fact that I'm a bit sentimental over this issue, it's a plague that actually exists and it's not somethng in my mind. And I once again dare you to name who these world beaters of today's football are really world class, players that will live through the years...

  9. #9
    jamsieboy86's Avatar
    Join Date
    05 Feb 09
    Posts
    1,355
    Thanked
    43 times
    Fav. Player
    Zanetti!

    Ireland

    65
    Sure any player I mention your just gonna hide behind your statement of

    "it can be argued that they are "world class", at least in this poorer football "world"."

    So if your of the opinion that current football is poorer then it will just debunk any of my arguements regarding current world class players.

    As for Ince and McManaman being the best English players of the last 20 years. As a Liverpool fan I can categorically say Gerrard is better than both, as all 3 have played for liverpool. What about Gazza, Beckham, Shearer, Owen, Rooney etc.

    As for Cocu being as good as Gerrard, laughable. Every other point you make is called into question beacuse of this ludacris statement.

    Players of the current that will live through the years:

    Messi, Ronaldinho, Henry, Gerrard, Ronaldo, C.Ronaldo, Beckham, Raul, Kaka, Casilas, Ibrahimovic, Rooney are all comparable with players you mentioned in your original post.

    Your obviously knowledgeable about soccer, and probably respected on this forum due to your large amount of posts, so more people are likely to side with you, especially since you are insinuating that i'm of the opinion that English football is superior to all others, which I'm not.

    I never said English football is better than Italian of the 90's, what I'm saying is that football is of a higher quality now than it was then. It called progression, every sport is getting better year by year, so how is soccer any different.

    Your whole arguement is undermined by your apparent hatred of the Bosman and Commercialisation of soccer. You seem to think that this has somehow diminished the quality of soccer.

    I think your quite arrogant, because you are not from Ireland and not influenced by the British your opinion is instantly superior to mine, complete bollocks!

  10. #10
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF
    I didn't imply that all Irish or people from that region are sheep to the British media or whatever. But there sure is some bias by the vast majority.

    Also, I don't HATE the Bosman rule, it just occured to me that ever since Bosman won the trial (his career was practically over btw), football has undergone through many changes. Some big clubs benefited, but as a whole, it's the English league that won most. You can't tell me that what you saw back in the 90s in England was good. It was near terrible, exclduing the top sides of course.

    Also Ronaldo and Raul are practically "older" players that are not accountable for what I was suggesting about the decline of football. I agree that Ibrahimovic, Kaka, Casillas, Messi and Ronaldinho would have succeeded at any time in history, but for the rest, allow me to have my doubts(about being the stars I mean)

    And as for the English player discussion, for me Steve McManaman is the best English player that I've seen live touching a ball inside a football pitch, followed by Paul Ince. Surely Alan Shearer is one of the best scorers ever for England, and Robbie Fowler had immense talent as a forward, but I'm more of a midfielder type (unless the striker is really fancy like Ronaldo, or incredibly good like Vieri and Batistuta)

    And seriously, Philip Cocu was way better than Steven Gerrard can ever be. I'm using Cocu as he was a leader like Gerrard is, and was versatile like Gerrard. I do admire Gerrard for his versatility and passion(and leadership), but being a football legend is going too far. Liverpool legend, probably yes, since he was involved in two CL finals, but Liverpool is a big club, and I;m not sure whether Bob Paisley and Shankley would say that Gerrard would be the star of their Liverpool squad. Cocu>Gerrard is a preference of mine and I don't impose that it's a fact or that everyone should believe it as well.

    Please explain to me how can Henry be a football legend? An Arsenal legend, definetly, but in 10 years time I could ask older people which was better between him and Abel Balbo and people could pick the Argentine! And Balbo was a very good striker, but definetly won't remain in history!


    And definetly every sport is not getting better year after year. Even basketball is falling, but not as much as football is. Hasan can probably come back and comment on this, how there are no more great Yugoslav basketball players like in the late 80s-early 90s. And his observation above finds me 100% agreed, and it's something that didn't occur my mind. Maybe the new generation is wasted on electronic games and I can even compare my self with children 10 years younger than me. My neighbourhood park is empty, while when I was younger I'd play with a large group of friends from 3pm until 9pm non-stop. Maybe sports is not "in" anymore. Sports is probably not a drug anymore, like Hasan said.

    If I left something unanswered or answered in vague, I surely didn't do it on purpose

  11. #11
    jamsieboy86's Avatar
    Join Date
    05 Feb 09
    Posts
    1,355
    Thanked
    43 times
    Fav. Player
    Zanetti!

    Ireland

    65
    You might not have said it, but it was implied, whether intentional or not.

    English football was no where near the standard it is now, it has become the best. The other leagues are now catching up, which kinda proves that soccer is getting better. The english took it to a new level and now the Spanish have caught up and the Italianlegaue will follow with the formation of the new league. I think that has got to do with the money the clubs have more so than the Bosman ruling. The bosman ruling has changed football, but not for the worse, freedom of movement of players is necessary, if your contract is up you should be allowed to leave, like every other line of work.

    How can Gerrard be the best Liverpool player since Dalglish yet two other player who played for Liverpool in that time be better than him. So because your a midfielder type you'll ignore forwards unless they are as good as Ronaldo, who I personally think is the greatest of all time. All forwards can't be judged by Ronaldo's standard. Vieri and Batistuta were good, but no better than Torres, Eto'o or Villa.

    Cocu was no where near the standard of Gerrard, seriously your deluded about Cocu's ability. Gerrard is one of the top 5 players in World football, Cocu never was and as I think there are more top quality players now this means Gerrard is in a different class than Cocu. I'm pretty sure Gerrard would've walked into Shankly's or Paisley's teams.

    Henry is the best player to grace the Premier League in the last decade, possibly the 2nd best French player this decade after Zindane. He's won everything in soccer, World Cup, European Championship, Champions league. He's ahead of the likes of Kaka, Ibrahimovic and Casilas in terms of place in history.

    Most sports are progressing, look at Athlethics, Track and Field, Swimming, American Football, Baseball, Cycling, Snooker. In all these records are being broken or averages getting higher. I find it dificult to believe that soccer is any different. The points teams win the League with is higher in recent years, in England and Italy for sure, not sure about Spain or others, but 2 of the biggest 3, thats progress. The game has evolved so much, its quicker and tougher, players don't get the same time on the ball anymore. Its harder to succeed.

    As for kids playing video games, some talent will be lost cos the kids don't play. Populations are getting larger annually and there are probably more kids playing soccer and other sports than there was at the turn of the century. It is a problem for grass routes soccer, but the top players have dedicated themselves all their lives to the sport, so if the kids are serious about the sport they will dedicate enough time regardless of any other distractions. I don't think it dilutes the quality at the business end of soccer.

    We are going to have agree to disagree.

  12. #12
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF
    Quote Originally Posted by jamsieboy86 View Post
    The bosman ruling has changed football, but not for the worse, freedom of movement of players is necessary, if your contract is up you should be allowed to leave, like every other line of work.
    Blatter is going to dismiss it he says, and awaits for your country's vote to pass a law in EU that makes sports a different sort of employment. Also i 'd day that England, as a stronger economy and all, was simply more ready to respond to this change, rather than improved and it's all about catching up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamsieboy86 View Post
    Vieri and Batistuta were good, but no better than Torres, Eto'o or Villa.
    Okay now you completely lost me. Were you born on 86 or is it just a lucky number? Vieri turned useless crosses into goals and scored almost everyhting, and Batigol is the best striker to come from Argentina in like forever. Torres and Villa are brilliant players, but definetly no better than the two I mentioned. Eto'o is very good as well, I like him, but not good enough. There's also no need to comment on Gerrard etc as it will take forever and it'l get repetitive


    Quote Originally Posted by jamsieboy86 View Post
    Henry is the best player to grace the Premier League in the last decade, possibly the 2nd best French player this decade after Zindane. He's won everything in soccer, World Cup, European Championship, Champions league. He's ahead of the likes of Kaka, Ibrahimovic and Casilas in terms of place in history.
    Probably the fact that he's the top scorer for France is the only thing that will mark his name in world football history. As for English football and Arsenal, then yes, he can seem a bit Godlike.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamsieboy86 View Post
    Most sports are progressing, look at Athlethics, Track and Field, Swimming, American Football, Baseball, Cycling, Snooker. In all these records are being broken or averages getting higher. I find it dificult to believe that soccer is any different.
    Okay, you can't just say that snooker is a SPORT WITH ATHLETES!
    Cycling: better training and better equipment
    American football: though I practically know shit about it, i'd guess the players are stronger now. Strength is one of the basic properties such an athlete needs.
    Swimming, Track & Field, Athletics: better methods are known and better personal care. Also people become faster etc as generations pass

    Good try, but football is much different than these sports. Yes people are growing faster, stronger, but the skill with the ball is more important. If you sacrifice football skill for pace and strength, then you lose the essence of football, so you go watch the Premier League

    Quote Originally Posted by jamsieboy86 View Post
    The points teams win the League with is higher in recent years, in England and Italy for sure, not sure about Spain or others, but 2 of the biggest 3, thats progress.
    That's a bad thing as it means there's less competition for the championship, and still, it's kinda wrong as there was an increase in Serie A(it was a 18team league) and I think the English top flyer has added a couple of teams in 1990.

  13. #13
    Hasan's Avatar
    Join Date
    14 Jul 05
    Posts
    6,172
    Thanked
    2,392 times
    Fav. Player
    4 & 10

    Bosnia Herzegovina

    35 10 years of FIF
    I don't think here is question who is better, Cocu or Gerard? (Definitely Gerard)?

    What Yuko trying to ask is : where is all that going, not just in football, also in other sports?

    My opinion is crystal clear, money is the key. There is no love for the game any more, all love goes for money.

    Yuko asked about basketball. Can you imagine team with:

    Petrović, Bodiroga, Danilović, Đorđević, Kukoč, Rađa, Divac, Paspalj, Rebrača, Vranković, Savić, Komazec etc.

    All of them played for love, at first. Than, when they become European champions with Partizan ( Đorđević,Danilović, Divac), Yugoplastika (Kukoč, Rađa, Savić), Cibona&Real(Dražen) than they started to earn serious money. Than they started to think about USA and now.... Every fukin kid with 17 yrs want to go on draft, why? Because of money.

    My opinion is, show that you can be boss in your own house and than go and try to do same thing in someone else's house.

    Some big talents going out from ex-Yu even today but they don't have much time. They are going out way to early.
    ... “Every time I see Walter Mazzarri’s Press conferences I have this doubt: Is he really such an idiot or does he just think we all are?”

    Parma team manager Sandro Melli

  14. #14
    brehme1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    17 Jan 05
    Posts
    8,458
    Thanked
    514 times

    Greece

    10 years of FIF
    Can someone tell me if there are any real number 10s in football at this moment? I can think of Kaka, Diego, Van der Vaart, perhaps Messi fits the bill, can't think of any others. And only the first and last are considered world class.

  15. #15
    Handoyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    04 Mar 04
    Posts
    24,674
    Thanked
    5,694 times

    Indonesia

    32 Forum Supporter 10 years of FIF Most Important Member
    Del Piero & Totti of course, although obviously they're past their prime days.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •