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Thread: What is a box to box midfielder

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    What is a box to box midfielder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Ludlow View Post
    To claim that concept "box-to-box midfielder" has implicite meanings such as not creative, not technical and not good passers is obviously false. It makes as much sense as to say that goalkeepers are tall by definition.

    Although, with some imagination your phrasing could also mean that the concept doesn't carry these three attributes. In that case, you are right.
    The general definition. There are exceptions of course. But anyway, maybe I shhould've said "not great passers" like Frank Lampard for example, or Gerard know how to spread the ball about, but they're not well known for making those well weighted, defence splitting passes that leave defenses in knots. Also the modernisation of the game, there're a lot of hybrid-players who tick all the boxes, Fabregas and even Xavi on occassion, who can operate in a variety of roles in midfield. But wen you say "box-to-box" you're not referring to either. If you use the text book definition.

    As for gks being tall by definition, its perhaps an unwritten rule, but you would be hard pressed to find a 1st choice goal keeper under 6 foot. Casillas is just superhuman

    Quote Originally Posted by Choppin Onions View Post
    The option to buy Kharja is what? 4mil? Chump change for Moratti. If he continues to perform in the manner he has, I would take up Genoa on that option.
    in what manner has he performed? you mean the goal against serie B bound Bari? c'mon man

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfU View Post
    box-to-box by definition are not good passers, good tecnically nor are they creative. Think Stankovic
    This is false, unless you are talking about technique or creative in terms of players like Xabi Alonso, Xavi, Pirlo(in the old days) etc.

    How can somebody be not good of a passer if he is box-to-box? It's not like box-to-box midfielders run for 90 minutes from back to the end, back and forth and just stand there.

    This is the point of box-to-box midfielders. That they should be good (productive) on both ends. Obviously there are hundreed different box-to-box. Some are freeks in terms of ball controll, others in terms of speed etc. etc. But all of them, must guarantee SOME level on both deffensive/offensive ends.

    I think Luka means an all around midfielder or simply a CMF.
    That's box-to-box.

    Schweinsteiger for example. He's not a box-to-box midfielder. He plays to deep for that and doesn't do as much up and down running/chasing.
    If you want to say Schweinsteiger is not box-to-box midfielder, basing that on the fact he doesn't play as one at the moment for Bayern is a poor proof. That's like saying Chivu ain't a center back, simply because for some reason our coaches only play him as left back.

    Schweinsteger doesn't do all this running/chasing and other things, because Bayern plays 4-2-3-1 right? And Schweinsteiger is doing the "deep-lying playmaker" job.

    If Bayern swiched to 4-4-2 rombo, and Schweinsteiger would play on either side of midfield, I'm sure he would do very well as box-to-box. After all, he played as a winger for some time, that means he has inclination for scoring/assisting goals.

    Thats what we need. That modern playmaker. Another perfect example is Xavi Alonso and Arteta. Not lazy or defensively hopeless like Pirlo, but intelligent ball players with great technqiue and strong passing skills.
    I think I know what you mean. Deep lying playmaker would deffinetly help us, if we will keep playing like Leo wants, or in the future, we will like to controll the possesion more.

    In that case, yes, we would deffinetly benefit from a deep lying playmaker.

    However... the problem here is what we have now(I believe). Cuchu is kinda screwing things for Leo now when we play 4-4-2 Rombo . It is obvious for me now, that Leo wants someone who is better at ball distribution there(that's why we saw Motta there so often). If we switch for 4-2-Fantasia I think we can have both(Cuchu acting as DM, and someone else acting as deep-lying), but so far we didn't.
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    I think I disagree a bit with Luka. By the definition, box-to-box midrfielder is a player who runs ~ from box to box. IMO we can draw a thin line between box-to-box and all-around midfielder. All-around definition tells more about player's characteristics (good at both ends) whereas box-to-box definition tells more about the player's role. Actually this is just a notice for your conversation (Luka and rFU) as it seemed your were talking a bit about different things.

    To me Schweinsteiger is not a box-to-box because he isn't actually too good in that role (running from box to box). He isn't that fast, he's more like controlling, a balancing player in the midfield. In Bayern they found the role for him where he can excel best and IMO that is what made him the player he is now. He played as winger in their flat 4-4-2 but didn't live up to the expectations. I'm not sure if he has played as CM in their flat 4-4-2 but in that case I'm sure it's been again more like controlling role since Bayern's wingers have been pretty offensive always (Ribery and so).

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    Cafe, Box-to-box and "all round midfielder" describes exactly the same type of player. It has nothing to do with being fast, or to run like a zombie from back to the front all the time.

    Box-to-box means: good on both ends of the field. That's it. It doesn't mean "It runs from back to front all the time". Sure it can be byproduct of the first description, but it's not the definition of box-to-box midfielder.
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    Box-to-box also implies a more dynamic role for the midfielder, who covers more ground than other roles in the midfield.

    Therefore, it requires more stamina for a box-to-box midfielder than for other midfielders, because of the grounds they cover per game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    Cafe, Box-to-box and "all round midfielder" describes exactly the same type of player. It has nothing to do with being fast, or to run like a zombie from back to the front all the time.

    Box-to-box means: good on both ends of the field. That's it. It doesn't mean "It runs from back to front all the time". Sure it can be byproduct of the first description, but it's not the definition of box-to-box midfielder.
    i think you have half of it right luka, i also think a box-to-box midfielder has to be good at both ends and be a good passer, but the definition is in the name, box-TO-box not box and box, kharja is good at both end but he isn't a "runner" so he isn't considered box-to-box but players like deki and hamsik are

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    Cafe, Box-to-box and "all round midfielder" describes exactly the same type of player. It has nothing to do with being fast, or to run like a zombie from back to the front all the time.

    Box-to-box means: good on both ends of the field. That's it. It doesn't mean "It runs from back to front all the time". Sure it can be byproduct of the first description, but it's not the definition of box-to-box midfielder.
    Well, I just disagree with you. To me box-to-box means exactly what it says: box to box. From own box to opponents box and everything between in those boxes. Like skeet said, Kharja is not box-to-box even if he can do stuff defensive and offensively, but Stankovic is box-to-box type because he really goes from box-to-box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
    Box-to-box also implies a more dynamic role for the midfielder, who covers more ground than other roles in the midfield.

    Therefore, it requires more stamina for a box-to-box midfielder than for other midfielders, because of the grounds they cover per game.
    Well sure, but it comes out of a natural necesity. It's not like you can be box-to-box midfielder, with a terrible stamina. If you were, then you wouldn't be able to play there in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by skeet View Post
    i think you have half of it right luka, i also think a box-to-box midfielder has to be good at both ends and be a good passer, but the definition is in the name, box-TO-box not box and box,
    It's just a name. Don't take it that litural :>

    kharja is good at both end but he isn't a "runner" so he isn't considered box-to-box but players like deki and hamsik are
    Why you don't think Kharja is good runner? I think he is pretty good at covering, and running a lot during games. At least thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by CafeCordoba View Post
    Well, I just disagree with you. To me box-to-box means exactly what it says: box to box. From own box to opponents box and everything between in those boxes. Like skeet said, Kharja is not box-to-box even if he can do stuff defensive and offensively, but Stankovic is box-to-box type because he really goes from box-to-box.
    Cafe, wait couple days, and read what you've written again. It makes no sense

    I'm not bashing you, just saying.

    Look at whatever source. I bet even on Wikipedia it will say exactly what I've said before.

    ps. Currently we use 2 box-to-box midfielders in 4-4-2 Rombo. Kharja and Cambiasso. So they both play in this position, they both play as box-to-box. How well they are AT IT, tells us if they are good box-to-box midfielders right? For example, we can put Maicon as box-to-box, sure his stamina will handle it, and he will play AS box to box, but it doesn't mean he will be good at it. Here we have Kharja, who I'd say is doing pretty well thus far on both ends of the field, but he ain't box-to-box
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    For me box to box can be position, not a type of player. Steven Gerard is best example, he can play like play maker, second striker, right or left or box to box, we have Stanković with similar qualities.

    It's very rare position because players who can play that are unique. It's very risky to demand from player to go up and down whole game because there is huge chance that player will fail and get lost in middle.

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    Cafe is certainly right. I don't understand why Luka thinks his description doesn't make sense. It makes perfect sense. Box-to-box midfielder is a midfielder who runs from box to box - quite simple. rfU's comments about this definition implicitely meaning "not good passer" and stuff like that is quite obviously wrong. How things generally seem to be in the world doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of this concept. If every left back in Serie A would be black, would you change the content of a concept "Serie A left back"? It's a clear-cut case, it's strange we even have to discuss this.

    Good way to emphasize the difference between concept "box-to-box midfielder" and more general concept "two-way midfielder" is deep-lying playmaker. Calling such player box-to-box midfielder would be crazy, although he sure is two-way midfielder meaning he contributes both ways.

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    You can be an alround midfielder without being box2box, but you cant be box2box without being an alround midfielder.

    Box to box midfielder literally roams from box to box (hence the name), where alround cm's (and dlp's for that matter) dont fluctuate as much positionwise and isnt required to have as much stamina or physique as the box2box. The area of the pitch a box2box midfielder covers is much greater than that of other types of midfielders, regardless if those are 'alround' or not.

    The traditional box2box midfielders (think Roy Keane and Viera) are usually slightly more accomplished defensively than offensively and characterise the game with better tackling and strengh compared to regularly cm's, while still possessing a fair amount of offensive capabilities. However the opposite have been seen like in example with Lampard playing box2box when not playing AM. He still has the stamina and physique to play box to box even if he is clearly better attacking than defending.

    Its really the qualities and playing style of the player that determines if he makes a good box2box midfielder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Ludlow View Post
    Cafe is certainly right. I don't understand why Luka thinks his description doesn't make sense. It makes perfect sense.
    The Kharja part doesn't make sense.

    "Like skeet said, Kharja is not box-to-box even if he can do stuff defensive and offensively, but Stankovic is box-to-box type because he really goes from box-to-box."

    Kharja can do stuff on both ends, as Cafe admits here, but he isn't suddenly box to box. Dejan also can do stuff on both ends, and he is box to box.

    Can you tell me where's the logic in that, and why Kharja ain't box-to-box?

    Doesn't he cover for Maicon, isn't he decent at taclking, and helping us deffend? Didn't he make assists, and also even scored a goal?

    So in what universe Kharja ain't acting at the moment like box to box midfielder?
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    For what I've seen, Kharja is playing more of a balancing role in the middle. He isn't running from box to box like Deki is. I believe this was what Cafe meant. Kharja might be two-way midfielder without being box-to-box.

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    I watched a replay of Roma game very carefully yesterday evening, and till Wes sub, he was running back and forth. You can often see him close to the penalty area, or even in the box, and also close to our penalty area whenever we don't have the ball.

    I don't want to say "You guys are blind or what? What are you smoking?!!" or anything like that, because everybody has their opinions. But I'm sure if you watched this game again, you would notice it as well.

    Also, there ain't something like a "minimum number of runs" for a midfielder to be considered box-to-box or playing as box-to-box. Some run more some less, but if somebody is seen on both ends of the field, helping on both ends of the field, also being allowed by the coach to run inside the penalty area, and it's not a very isolated case, he plays as box to box to me. Kharja fits all those parameters. He deffends, he covers lots of ground, he runs inside the penalty area, and he combines with teammates.

    Maybe he might seem as "restricted" because of Maicon runs, but just because he covers for him in some ocasions, or isn't pushing forward(because Maicon is very advanced), it does't mean he doesn't play as box to box.
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    What is a box to box midfielder

    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    The Kharja part doesn't make sense.

    "Like skeet said, Kharja is not box-to-box even if he can do stuff defensive and offensively, but Stankovic is box-to-box type because he really goes from box-to-box."

    Kharja can do stuff on both ends, as Cafe admits here, but he isn't suddenly box to box. Dejan also can do stuff on both ends, and he is box to box.

    Can you tell me where's the logic in that, and why Kharja ain't box-to-box?

    Doesn't he cover for Maicon, isn't he decent at taclking, and helping us deffend? Didn't he make assists, and also even scored a goal?

    So in what universe Kharja ain't acting at the moment like box to box midfielder?
    deki runs 11 km per game, kharja runs 8 km per game

    deki is box to box, kharja isn't

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    a) How many km Kharja should run to be considered Box-to-box? 8.7, 9.8?
    b) I'm sceptic about those stats
    c) Where did you get them from?
    d) Which games you compared, which positions Kharja/Deki occupied on those games?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    a) How many km Kharja should run to be considered Box-to-box? 8.7, 9.8?
    b) I'm sceptic about those stats
    c) Where did you get them from?
    d) Which games you compared, which positions Kharja/Deki occupied on those games?
    jeez luka

    it doesn't take an incredible tactical awareness or superhuman observation to see that deki runs much much much more than kharja

    seriously dude, there is nothing wrong in admitting that you have learned something, nobody will be laughing at you through their cheeto covered keyboards if you admit that you weren't the all knowing master of football tactics and terminology

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    You mean you just made up those stats?

    I mean is that the reason, you didn't give me the source?

    Quote Originally Posted by skeet View Post
    seriously dude, there is nothing wrong in admitting that you have learned something, nobody will be laughing at you through their cheeto covered keyboards if you admit that you weren't the all knowing master of football tactics and terminology
    I have no problem with that, when I see a valid reason for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeet View Post

    seriously dude, there is nothing wrong in admitting that you have learned something, nobody will be laughing at you through their cheeto covered keyboards if you admit that you weren't the all knowing master of football tactics and terminology
    lol...that explains why blackmore is on 24/7. Waiting for that day when luka can finally admit it...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    You mean you just made up those stats?

    I mean is that the reason, you didn't give me the source?
    yes luka, those stats were pulled out of the deepest, darkest corners of my hairy ass

    I have no problem with that, when I see a valid reason for it.
    it's funny you say that because there have been three pages of several people telling you the exact same thing only for you to remain in complete denial over something that most people don't even think is debatable

    now for the last time, a box-to-box midfielder is defined as "The indefatigable all-action player covering every blade of grass for a full 90." by PES

    either accept it, or go back to your own world where box to box midfielders don't have to run from box to box

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