Where are all the Legendary defenders?

i dunno. it's still not quite clear why germany's actions did what it did..

i was explaining to a friend how germany rebuilt their national team after dropping out of euro 2000 group stages. he asked me: then how did they produce all those players before the reform, if they weren't "teaching basic skills to them" then? and what were the reasons for the decline?

in other words, how did italy produce facchetti, burgnich, valentino and sandro mazzola, rivera, altobelli, scirea, gentile, tardelli, meazza, zoff etc before that? or in the case of germany, muller, beckenbauer, brehme, sammer, forster, matthaus, rummennige, voller, walter, breitner, maier etc?

It's also correlated with the increase in the quality of player's diets.

Dylan said:

It's also correlated with the increase in the quality of player's diets.

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what do you mean?

bandiera said:

it's still not quite clear why germany's actions did what it did..

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It's pretty clear. Italy has increasingly put a focus on tactics rather than individual ability, that is why it stopped "producing" players. As Capello said, tactics at youth levels is the "cheap way out". Germany has refined its system to focus on more than simply tactics. They've also worked on things that modern football requires like mental speed, execution speed, and spatial visualization.

Foreigners are only a part of the problem. There just aren't as many talents at 18-19 years old to be developed like there used to be. Italy is even the only top 4 league that doesn't have effin II/Reserve teams.

Look at some of the high tech shit they use in youth teams training in Germany

just to elaborate on my guess that corroborates with i4e's post:

the league was extremely competitive in the 90s with lazio, roma, samp, inter, juve, milan, parma all simultaneously challenging for scudetto. dont forget about fiorentina (batigol), napoli, foggia etc.

so cheap foreigners gave serie a teams instant quality without having to put in the time and effort to develop young players. less emphasis on primavera, less opportunities given to young players and even coaches, less investment in scouting at youth levels. less demand, less supply. for example, robin dutt, head of dfb, said that "We have 80 million people in Germany and I think before 2000 nobody noticed a lot of talent. Now we notice everyone."

after the 90s, what talent came directly through juve, milan, or inter's youth academies? they all came through smaller teams that prioritized youth development because they couldn't even afford foreign imports. before that, milan grew maldini, costacurta, baresi, inter grew altobelli, baresi, bergomi. from the research ive made, juve never prioritized youth, perhaps because they were always quite competitive, and that was never part of boniperti's plan.

you put in 8 year olds with decent technical skills into a system with little competitiveness, they wont do anything.

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edit; i think its probably a combination of both, if what capello is saying is true. obviously putting emphasis on tactical battles at youth level is ludicrous. thats what makes youth teams sign players with physicality and speed that have natural advantage over other kids (neglecting the rough diamonds in favor of, i dunno, the smooth plastic).

Too many foreigners is a symptom not the problem. It's a symptom of a league focused on short term results over anything, with 0 long term planning. Just because you ban foreigners, it does not mean the league will suddenly reinvent itself, and youth system will suddenly flourish.

If Italy wants great Italian players, they're going to have to get over their short term thinking, and bureaucracy. It needs to create reserve teams, ban the "results first" mentality at grassroots level, and focus on individual ability. Especially on mental and execution speed of the players. Also, increasing overall footballing i.q. is imperative. It needs to invest money that it probably doesn't have.

Banning foreigners is simply 1 step out of a million. Everything else will not suddenly fix itself. That everything else is the hardest part.

bandiera said:

obviously putting emphasis on tactical battles at youth level is ludicrous. thats what makes youth teams sign players with physicality and speed that have natural advantage over other kids (neglecting the rough diamonds in favor of, i dunno, the smooth plastic).

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exactly

disagree on foreigners being a symptom vs a problem. and i don't think banning foreigners will do shit, because it wont reverse the effects bringing them in had on youth development. more italians will be playing, but that doesnt mean more talented italians will be playing.

but you should be able to understand why they had short term thinking back then. the league had a lot of quality back then.

just as an additional thought though, scholes notably said banning league tables at youth level is ridiculous because it puts less emphasis on winning, which is all that matters at the highest level. i partially agree. then again, belgium is the only country where that has been successfully implemented.

a more insightful way to approach the issue is to explain why the results first mentality at younger grassroots levels should be banned. coaches are focusing on winning at all costs vs playing the football that can get the most out of the younger players. its a coaching issue. therefore it requires a coaching solution. it comes down to training which is what i think roby baggio talked about when he was in the FIGC.

so while there may not be a league table, teams will still know when they lose and when they win.

bandiera said:

i don't think banning foreigners will do shit, because it wont reverse the effects bringing them in had on youth development. more italians will be playing, but that doesnt mean more talented italians will be playing.

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what..?

bandiera said:

but you should be able to understand why they had short term thinking back then. the league had a lot of quality back then.

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I did understand it then. I don't understand it now.

Fapuccino said:

what..?

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its like if you have a glass of apple juice. knock the glass over, the juice gets all over the place. but if you put the glass back into its original position, doesnt mean the juice will also go back. itll still be all over the place.

likewise, more foreigners, less quality in italians. if you reduce foreigners, doesn't mean quality in italians will go back up.

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Fapuccino said:

I did understand it then. I don't understand it now.

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its easier to buy a south american defender for 1 million euros that will give instant quality than to successfully promote a centerback out of your primavera who is raw as fuck because theres less risk and time involved.

you said it yourself - the quality isnt high enough. fio (eg) want to qualify for europa b/c their expectations are higher than fuckin atalanta (whose season goals are safety and developing young players); so if they can buy borja valero for 6 million and gonzalo for 1 million theyll do it.

That's why you have reserve and II teams. You combine professional players with Primavera. There is a huge disconnect between Primavera and Serie A. Players from the reserves will be much better suited to Serie A.

I liked that Mr. Bean called for reserve teams, we need more people like him. Too bad no one takes him seriously.

Fapuccino said:

That's why you have reserve and II teams. You combine professional players with Primavera. There is a huge disconnect between Primavera and Serie A. Players from the reserves will be much better suited to Serie A.

I liked that Mr. Bean called for reserve teams, we need more people like him. Too bad no one takes him seriously.

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again, you said it yourself. quality isnt good enough. making shitty youth footballers make the transition will produce shitty professional footballers.

that wont discourage fiorentina from buying gonzalo for 1 million or napoli buying koulibaly for 3 million. you cant blame, eg. palermo from having short term goals. they know they will never be contending for scudetto, and theyll be lucy as fuck if they qualify for europe. you cant blame them for prioritizing safety over developing youth.

youth is sadly a problem that isnt recognized enough by the clubs. the clubs, instead, apply solutions to what they reasonably see as their problems (safety etc), which makes the bigger one worse. thats where it comes down to the federation to force solutions and recognition of the issue.

Reserves are still a training ground unlike Serie A. They could shape those players, unlike the league which is results over development. It will also tell us which players are worth taking a chance on. So it reduces the probability of bringing in crap youth players (sometimes it's hard to tell).

For example if we had a great 16 year old, we could put him in a high maintenance training ground like reserves, to accelerate his development.

Combines a high level of football, without the early pressure for results.

Fapuccino said:

Reserves are still a training ground unlike Serie A. They could shape those players, unlike the league which is results over development. It will also tell us which players are worth taking a chance on. So it reduces the probability of bringing in crap youth players (sometimes it's hard to tell).

For example if we had a great 16 year old, we could put him in a high maintenance training ground like reserves, to accelerate his development.

Combines a high level of football, without the early pressure for results.

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bro, when did i say "reserves are bad"? i just think thats hardly the only necessary solution. eg. france has reserve teams, only lyon and sochaux churn out talent on a regular basis because they have the best youth systems in the country.

i dunno, im not going to act like im an armchair expert or anything like that.

France has a lot of great talents not just those two. Certainly a lot better than Italy.

Fapuccino said:

France has a lot of great talents not just those two. Certainly a lot better than Italy.

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mainly those two though. i mean, who the fuck has come out of ajaccio for example? and its a different league. quality is lower, so more teams take risks, and france has national development centres with some of the best facilities in the world (eg. clairefontaine), where they auction the best youth players off to different clubs. a lot of the clubs in france also have a lot of history with youth development (lens, sochaux, lyon, rennais).

you're using the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy dude. if you bring reserve teams in italy, it'll obviously help, but in most cases shit youth footballers will be eased into the highest level to become shit pro footballers. and i think you can pull something similar with the current framework in lower divisions, although there wont be fluidity which is awesome to have

Yeah and Rabiot, Coman, Varane, Thauvin they all came from space.

Fapuccino said:

Yeah and Rabiot, Coman, Varane, Thauvin they all came from space.

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thats not an argument. you just ignored everything i said and basically repeated your point by giving examples. i never said france doesnt have any talent or has less talent than italy.

you said reserve teams are the reason france is better than italy. i said there are other factors to consider. i mean, three ligue 1 clubs were in the top five european clubs giving the most first team oppurtunities to academy graduates:

1. Barcelona (9)
2. Athletic Bilbao (8)
3. Stade Rennais, Toulouse FC (6)
5. AS Saint-Etienne (5)

the league quality is lower, theres a different culture, clubs have long long history of youth development (metz, lens, rennais, sochaux, st etienne, le havre, lyonnais, auxere, nantes, monaco etc), there are national training centres with some of the best facilities/scouting in the world (clairefontaine etc), the federation is different (youth natiaonl teams etc)...

bandiera said:

you said reserve teams are the reason france is better than italy.

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when did i say that...I implied it's one of the reasons, never said it was the only.

I was countering your point for France churning no great talents except those 2 teams.

Fapuccino said:

when did i say that...I implied it's one of the reasons, never said it was the only.

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yeah, but its negligent to even say its one of the reasons without knowing the others. reserve teams are an important part, but its so much more complicated than that.

and thats essentially what you implied in reply to my france point.

bandiera said:

reserve teams are an important part, but its so much more complicated than that.

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Im not disagreeing with that, I was just responding to you saying those are the only 2 teams that churn out talent in France. I never said France is better than Italy only because of reserves, although reserves are a huge part of their youth.