Goal Scorers and Assist-Men 2020/21

[brehme1989]

Dude, are you pretending you have a short memory or something? How many times does it need to be mentioned?

Lukaku got an "assist" for MISSING a header, it scraped the back of his head and then another Inter player scored. They gave him an assist for that. It's never an assist.

[youtube]FK-pQrELPKE[/youtube]

Please explain to me how that first Inter goal can be justified as an assist? [starts at 1:50]

In the same game, you have not counted that pass as an assist by Sanchez, just because a defender got to it first, which was going to be an own goal anyway without Lukaku's intervention...


What I do is rather consistent based on certain parameters. If it's a rebound goal after a save, it probably has no KC or assist, unless it's within the motion of the original pass, or unless there was a clean hit of the bar and the scorer just tapped it in effortlessly.

Also, I'm giving assists on own goals. Because they are assists. They are intentional passes to teammates with the purpose of scoring. A defender beat them to it, doesn't mean it's less of an assist.

You're also giving key contributions to players that earn penalties. It's one way of looking at it, but it's a new situation and if we're going consistently there, you'll have to give KCs to players earning free kicks or even corner kicks. I've limited contributions to a maximum of 2.

I've included the list, if you want to see why the numbers are different, it's pretty easy to spot the differences.

 

[Bluenine]

Lukaku got an "assist" for MISSING a header, it scraped the back of his head and then another Inter player scored. They gave him an assist for that. It's never an assist.

You know that I don't use opinion to award goals and assists - I just record it as per livescore to keep the bias out. If you have a problem with that assist, please argue with GdS, Transfermarkt, and Livescore who all recorded that assist.

If you present me with a specific kc issue, happy to reconsider.

 

[brehme1989]

You asked me about the missing assist. You KNOW it is ridiculous to award an assist there. I gave you the reasoning, I gave you the video. Stop pretending you're on some higher pedestal with valuable sources that prove it's an assist and stop attacking me because "I have double standards" and "I am biased against certain players".

Just admit that it was a stupid attack towards me and get it over with. There was no reason for such a response, especially for an issue that was mentioned in this thread, mentioned in the game thread and also mentioned a few more times in the Lukaku thread... You were fully aware of this and you decided to go "camp Lukaku vs enemies" on this for no bloody reason! Why not ask me why I have an extra assist for Barella?

 

[FairyTailed]

This is a community post kept up to date by Bluenine. To avoid turning this into an entire pool of subjectiveness, objective parametres are used for goals and assists. In this case, a few sources. These sources themselves stick to objective parametres because there's no point in creating a field of discussion. It would hurt the sources themselves due to arbitrariness and go past the point of showing statistics.

The only measurement for which this is not the case is KC. For this specific measurement, Bluenine invites everyone to participate and give their opinion. It's a free discussion and everyone can chime in with their opinion. You've done so multiple times and people (including the poster) have listened and approved your arguments.

Stop pretending you're on some higher pedestal with valuable sources that prove it's an assist and stop attacking me because "I have double standards" and "I am biased against certain players".

You're not understanding that with your post, you're the one placing yourself on the pedestal. If you look at the first part of my comment - why do you bother posting your statistics at all? This post was made for the most part (goals + assists) as an objective display for the community. Which means nothing to be discussed about. Your post does only that - create unwarranted discussion. Even if not entirely intended, the only message you're giving is: "This guy doesn't know what he's doing so here is my better version."

When in reality, no-one actually cares about your kept statistics (for goals and assists). Not because of you, but because there is no field for discussion. Your opinion won't change the organisation and control of the post nor will it become the standard. Because, again, goals and assists are not under discussion.

It'd be better in fact, if it were just ignored by everyone - as it has been by everyone but Bluenine. But I understand their annoyance.

Just admit that it was a stupid attack towards me and get it over with.

I can't read people's minds, but I'm pretty sure it's a misunderstanding. What concerns specifically the "bias towards Lukaku", that's something you'll have to deal with as you brought it upon yourself. But the main problem is that your post (#61 on top of this page) is not as clear as you think it is. It's not concise at all. If you read the post in isolation, you might as well be going on another tirade about that assist not being one after Bluenine already explained he does not use subjectiveness for goals and assists. And for what it's worth, I agree subjectively with your opinion. And so does Bluenine. But it won't change a thing.

All you should've said was: "It's because of the assist from his missed header, I have not counted it as one." and every bit of misunderstanding would've gone out of the window.

The behavior against you is honestly always because it's reciprocal. And I think Bluenine has been the biggest man here with the mildness of their responses.

A general tip to anyone reading this: take longer than 5 minutes before replying. Wait a day if needed, and you'll see the tenure of your post already changing for the positive.

 

[brehme1989]

You can paint this whatever way pleases you, the truth is that I was accused of missing out data due to bias in an entire post, when he is fully aware of the situation of that missing "assist".

I've been gathering such data long before FIF had a thread on it, so save the objectivities and the crusades. I said I disagree with the way assists are handed because there's no consistency over the years. They change the system in circles anyway, so I have placed a more consistent approach that does not care about fantasy football points.

Do you want me to go and rant that no one cares what the people who vote on your dataset because 2/3 of them are biased? I was asked to present my data and I have. Then I was attacked for being biased... Just chill and follow your own advice when it comes to replying. If you disagree with something, just say that. There was no reason for Bluenine to accuse me of being biased, just like you wanted me to reply with a cute tone, perhaps a better initiation of that discussion would have been that I missed out an assist or added a few.

 

[FairyTailed]

I've been gathering such data long before FIF had a thread on it, so save the objectivities and the crusades. I said I disagree with the way assists are handed because there's no consistency over the years. They change the system in circles anyway, so I have placed a more consistent approach that does not care about fantasy football points.

Good, but this thread is currently under the control of Bluenine. Respect their work or respectfully disagree but don't impose yourself.

Do you want me to go and rant that no one cares what the people who vote on your dataset because 2/3 of them are biased?

Not 2/3rd.

3/3rd. Everyone is biased - that's why the votes are done between 70-200 people depending on the game.

I was asked to present my data and I have. Then I was attacked for being biased... Just chill and follow your own advice when it comes to replying. If you disagree with something, just say that. There was no reason for Bluenine to accuse me of being biased, just like you wanted me to reply with a cute tone, perhaps a better initiation of that discussion would have been that I missed out an assist or added a few.

This is not actually true. Bluenine said to post your picture as a comparison at the end of the season - as it misses peer review. And he told you to upkeep your posts concerning KC's:

(...)

Brehme (...)

The whole point of the "kc" system is to make sure that all key contributions that led to the goal are taken into account, so that we have a true picture of each players end product. I have no probs with you posting an alternate picture at the end of the season, but the reason I post this immediately after each game is so that we can peer review it. Like we are doing now. That is important to take out any error/bias/inconsistency. Your picture will miss that peer review. My suggestion is that you post your views here after each game, and as you can see here, I take that into the account.

(...)

There was no reason for Bluenine to accuse me of being biased (...)

You're completely correct. But as said, you got that stigma all over you because of a cumulation of posts.

 

[brehme1989]

This is not actually true. Bluenine said to post your picture as a comparison at the end of the season - as it misses peer review. And he told you to upkeep your posts concerning KC's.

No, I said i would post it at the end of the season, to avoid contaminating each other's data set.

Bluenine insisted I post it right after games:

My suggestion is that you post your views here after each game, and as you can see here, I take that into the account.

 

[FairyTailed]

No, I said i would post it at the end of the season, to avoid contaminating each other's data set.

Bluenine insisted I post it right after games:

No, you misunderstood his post then.

(...)
I have no probs with you posting an alternate picture at the end of the season
(...)
Your picture will miss that peer review. My suggestion is that you post your views here after each game, and as you can see here, I take that into the account.
(...)

He means your view on the KC, as your picture is not peer reviewed.

 

[brehme1989]

Either way, the whole idea is around the assists. If all we're doing is collecting goals and assists, then you can use transfermarkt instead. The whole concept of having an independent party collect the data is to filter out whatever is not valid.

And missing that header and having no idea that there was a teammate behind you, only for Sanchez to score right after that miss does not constitute an assist. Just because it's rated one by Lega, does not make it an actual assist.

Just remember that not so long ago, assists weren't even counted and Transfermarkt had to come up with a new structure to use them [and their data entry is limited], so their own data is contaminated by using their own metrics and then mixed up with official countings, based on different outcomes and metrics.

The whole idea of gathering the data is to have a more balanced and objective view. Following official numbers does not do much, otherwise the concept of Key Contribution is irrelevant.


When the first post says "assists are as per the technical definition" and then we're just copying whatever Lega says, it's not really following what we've started to carry out, does it? The situation with Lukaku vs Torino is proof that assists are not handed out by the technical definition of what constitutes an assist.

- - - Updated - - -

On assists:

- An assist was awarded to the player who had given the last pass to the goalscorer.
- In addition, the last but two holder of the ball could get an assist provided that his action had decisive importance for the goal. [what we include as Key Contribution]
- After goals from rebounds those players were awarded an assist who had shot on target.
- After goals scored on penalty or by a directly converted free-kick the fouled player received a point. [Key contribution is given here for example, only for PKs though]
- In case that the goalscorer had laid on the goal for himself (dribble, solo run), no assists were awarded.
- No assists were awarded, either, if the goalscorer took advantage of a missed pass by an opponent.
- Where goals resulting from penalties are concerned, the player who is fouled in the area receives an assist point (unless, that is, the player who is fouled subsequently executes the penalty himself). [which came in 1990 to eliminate the direct FK assist]


These are how the World Cup measured assists for example. Quite a liberal approach, yet it still would not assign an assist to Lukaku's miss because it was backwards and unintentional!

 

[Bluenine]

Torino 1-2 Inter
62' Lukaku pen (kc: Martinez)
85' Martinez (a: Sanchez)


Inter 1-0 Atalanta
54' Skriniar (a: Bastoni)

- For consistency, assists awarded as per Livescore
- kc = Key contributions
- GC% = Percentage of Inter goals the player has contributed towards

 

[Bluenine]

Inter 1-0 Cagliari
77' Darmian (a: Hakimi, kc: Lukaku)


Inter 2-1 Sassuolo
10' Lukaku (a: Young, kc: Martinez)
67' Martinez (a: Lukaku, kc: Barella)


Bologna 0-1 Inter
32' Lukaku (kc: Bastoni, Young)

- For consistency, assists awarded as per Livescore
- kc = Key contributions
- GC% = Percentage of Inter goals the player has contributed towards

 

[CafeCordoba]

Just commenting the missing stats which haven't been added yet.

Napoli: Eriksen goal, no assists or KC
Spezia: Perisic, I'd give assist straight away to Hakimi, but someone might turn it to KC (like livescore apparently)
Verona: Darmian, assist Hakimi, KC Sanchez

Sanchez pass to Hakimi in a goal against Verona was basically what made the goal or created the whole chance. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Bluenine]

Thanks Cafe. I was about to post this. Do it after every 2-3 games now, as not too many people seem to be interested.

Just commenting the missing stats which haven't been added yet.

Napoli: Eriksen goal, no assists or KC

There is no assist, agreed. Re KC, there were some contributions - Lukaku's hold up play was good, but perhaps not KC worthy. That Barella through ball to Hakimi was neat. Hakimi's cross was useful but not great. Neither was Darmian's. IMO only Barella's through ball deserves a KC. It was quality and it pretty much created the attack. I am stingy with KCs, this one deserves it IMO.

Spezia: Perisic, I'd give assist straight away to Hakimi, but someone might turn it to KC (like livescore apparently)

Yeah, technically its a KC for Hakimi, just to be consistent. But was the ball to Hakimi was also KC worthy (from Barella)? I am undecided about that one. Happy to hear more opinions before updating the table.

Verona: Darmian, assist Hakimi, KC Sanchez

Sanchez pass to Hakimi in a goal against Verona was basically what made the goal or created the whole chance. Brilliant stuff.

Completely agree.

 

[CafeCordoba]

I wouldn't account KC to Barella in Eriksen goal. IMO wasn't anything special, as it didn't put Hakimi to a great position or anything and basically nothing came out of that cross. To me it was just a loose ball which Eriksen smashed in.

Barella KC in Perisic goal, hmm. Well I guess, it opened the play pretty well for Hakimi. If that's the standard you've used, KC is fine from that pass?

And btw these stats are SUPER interesting for me.

 

[brehme1989]

Napoli: Eriksen goal, no assists or KC
Spezia: Perisic, I'd give assist straight away to Hakimi, but someone might turn it to KC (like livescore apparently)
Verona: Darmian, assist Hakimi, KC Sanchez

That's what I have, but also given a KC to Barella for the Spezia goal, Hakimi with the assist.

 

[Bluenine]

Napoli 1-1 Inter
55' Eriksen


Spezia 1-1 Inter
39' Perisic (kc: Hakimi, Barella)


Inter 1-0 Verona
76' Darmian (a: Hakimi, kc: Sanchez)

- For consistency, assists awarded as per Livescore
- kc = Key contributions
- GC = Total Goal Contributions = Goals + Assists + kc
- GC% = Percentage of Inter goals the player has contributed towards

 

[Bluenine]

Crotone 0-2 Inter
69' Eriksen (a: Lukaku, kc: Sanchez)
92' Hakimi (a: Barella)

- For consistency, assists awarded as per Livescore
- kc = Key contributions
- GC = Total Goal Contributions = Goals + Assists + kc
- GC% = Percentage of Inter goals the player has contributed towards

 

[CafeCordoba]

Funny how Opta has Lukaku at 21+10 for the Serie A season being the first player to have at least 20+10 since 04/05 when Opta started to collect the stats. While here we have only 9 assists. Which goal might it be which they credited an assist for him which we/Bluenine doesn't?

 

[Bluenine]

Funny how Opta has Lukaku at 21+10 for the Serie A season being the first player to have at least 20+10 since 04/05 when Opta started to collect the stats. While here we have only 9 assists. Which goal might it be which they credited an assist for him which we/Bluenine doesn't?

Everyone has a different way of awarding assists. Opta and Whoscored have Lukaku at 21+10, Livescore (that we use) have him on 21+9, while the Serie A site has him on 21+7. I guess it doesn't really matter to us because:

1. We are consistent - use only 1 source
2. We also record kc. So every goal contribution gets recorded as an assist or a kc

So the actual number for Lukaku is 21+14. He has scored/created 35 goals in Serie A this season.

 

[CafeCordoba]

Actual numbers are obviously goals + assists. Our goal contributions are totally unofficial and just for our pleasure to see players' contributions to goals scored more detailed.

But I'm interested in that one missing assist livesore has compared to Opta.