Lucien Agoumé

[PHM1605]

Andrea Pinamonti aged 21-22 was eating Inter bench, correct, but for the 2 prior years already had 59 Serie A games and played almost 4k minutes across those two seasons, and was in high demand (1600 minutes then 2400 minutes the season after). Agoume's last two seasons actually arent too far off at 3k minutes, but his first season was 2k minutes and his second one was only 1k as he moved into a harder league.

That's entirely the point. PROGRESSION. Agoume shows no fucking progression in the 4 years he's been out on loan. The whole point of developmental loans is to... develop. You gotta see it like getting promotions at work. Show that you're more than capable of the challenge ahead of you, and you'll get more responsibility. Youth players need to show consistent improvement to find out what their level is. If they cant 'beat' the challenge in front of them, then you've likely found their level (like I said, you get one or two 'bad' seasons to adapt, too). Agoume has completely plateaued at the first level he got a chance to try, and now no one in Europe aside from maybe Sevilla want him.

Youth players who dont develop over 2, 3, 4 seasons we need to cut.

I've never ever really said the *level* they're playing at is massively significant, but what is significant is the PROGRESSION.

Same with Di Gregorio. What you see is *clear* and consistent progression. Aged 20, 3k minutes in Serie C, Aged 21 2700 minutes in Serie C, Aged 22 3k minutes in Serie B, Aged 23 2k5 minutes Serie B, aged 24 3k3 minutes Serie B, aged 25 3k3 minutes Serie A


Thats why I dont have any time for Satriano, Agoume, Esposito, etc. Fuckers show no progression. I dont care what level people start off at, they need to show consistent starting and progressively improving. Otherwise they're just il nuovo Longo/Mei.


The 'ideal' progression for a youth player - and last time I ran the data, something like >90% of our first team conformed to this - is that you play at some level aged 18, doesnt really matter what, but semi-regular game time. By 18/19, you're a first team regular at some level, often Serie B, not rarely top level (in some country). 19/20 you're probably a 'strong' first team starter, probably at the top level (e.g. the top league, even if in a weaker country)


I have never found the report since, but I saw like 15 years ago a report that said City ran some data and 75% of players in the CL latter stages were first team REGULARS playing in the CL by the time they were 18.

Reality is, its a fucking competitive trajectory, experience *really* matters, and while some exceptions do exist, the vast majority of players who dont follow that trajectory wont make it

Look at Inter, something like 50% of our youth graduates arent even professional footballers anymore in what should be the peak of their career

From Inter bench to Sevilla XI is a huge development. Ofc when you move from an easier league to a harder one it takes time to gain minutes. What do you expect him to do anything else, starting right away at a new team?

You see no progression, seriously? Please be honest, you see no minutes growing. Those are two different things. You are bringing your math class (without watching) to judge a player how the hell he will be at 24-25 due to the stats he is currently having at 22.

Totally nonsense. Gregorio stayed in the same league with the same elementary level, staying in his comfort zone. Agoume moves straight from Serie B to France then to fucking La Liga. With all the cultural switching added. By your logic, Asllani had 2300 minutes "in Serie A" 21/22 (Empoli) but in 22/23 he had merely 800 minutes "in Serie A" (Inter) so he is showing no fucking PrOgReSsIoN and be dumped asap???

Ffs I feel like this is the Stocks thread with crappy forecasting AI models or how FM game is generating their engine Follow him first before claiming about progress.

 

[Nerazzurri_Ninja]

I always liked sevilla, good luck kid

 

[.h.]

From Inter bench to Sevilla XI is a huge development. Ofc when you move from an easier league to a harder one it takes time to gain minutes. What do you expect him to do anything else, starting right away at a new team?

You see no progression, seriously? Please be honest, you see no minutes growing. Those are two different things. You are bringing your math class (without watching) to judge a player how the hell he will be at 24-25 due to the stats he is currently having at 22.

Totally nonsense. Gregorio stayed in the same league with the same elementary level, staying in his comfort zone. Agoume moves straight from Serie B to France then to fucking La Liga. With all the cultural switching added. By your logic, Asllani had 2300 minutes "in Serie A" 21/22 (Empoli) but in 22/23 he had merely 800 minutes "in Serie A" (Inter) so he is showing no fucking PrOgReSsIoN and be dumped asap???

Ffs I feel like this is the Stocks thread with crappy forecasting AI models or how FM game is generating their engine Follow him first before claiming about progress.

Yeah, Asllani is really struggling. I think everyone here says the same thing as well. Last year was a bit better, but 90% of this forum agrees Asllani is sghowing little progress and should have gone out on loan last year.

Di Gregorio played two consistent seasons, and made a step up. He played two more consistent seasons and then made another step up.

Agoume showed so much progress that no one in Europe wants to sign him lmao


Lets see where it is in 2 years time, but I suspect we all know the answer to that.


Out of interest, how much of Agoume at Sevilla did you watch?

That club P38 W10D11L17 overall in 23-24, in Agoume's run of starts at the end of the season they P6 W1 D1 L4 lol


And, yeah, I've nto seen him play. But if you wanna go out on a limb and say he's some sort of star player, go for it. But I'm willing to bet real money he never has anything like a significant season for Inter. At this point, every scout in Europe knows the guy, and none of them want to sign him

 

[thatdude]

It's Inter whom don't rate Agoume. And you specifically... have you ever hyped any kid?

.h. Actually used to rate our primavera products extremely highly. Perhaps even to the point of overrating. Then he got burned and it’s been fuck them kids ever since.

Daniel Bessa and Alfred Duncan were the primary culprits. Only FIF folks that were around during treble years will remember the Next Gen cup win.

 

[thatdude]

Also we have to be fair when we look at Agoume’s minutes at Sevilla. He came in January. Went straight into the team, then basically missed 2 months with an injury. Got fit and came back into the team and finished the season a starter.

 

[.h.]

.h. Actually used to rate our primavera products extremely highly. Perhaps even to the point of overrating. Then he got burned and it’s been fuck them kids ever since.

Daniel Bessa and Alfred Duncan were the primary culprits. Only FIF folks that were around during treble years will remember the Next Gen cup win.

pretty much this

the sad truth is, our primavera does look quite good often on paper, but we end up producing at a *really* poor level. Some of those guys arent even pro footballers now.

I dont know what it is - it doesnt 'really' make sense to me, but its like we either emphasise the wrong qualities, or focus on people who 'look good' on paper as kids but fail to translate to the top level

in terms of youth league stats, some of our players blow away some of the guys who actually make it to the top level for Italy, but the sad fact remains, the level we produce at the primavera is quite poor. Its improved a little bit the last few years, but not hugely - kinda largely carried by Dimarco tbh.

Even Benassi, who was a regular Serie A level midfielder, hasnt even had a club for a year now almost


the worst are the guys we spend proper money on. Salcedo. Tassi. Colidio. etc. Fucking 8m euros on Salcedo alone.

 

[thatdude]

pretty much this

the sad truth is, our primavera does look quite good often on paper, but we end up producing at a *really* poor level. Some of those guys arent even pro footballers now.

I dont know what it is - it doesnt 'really' make sense to me, but its like we either emphasise the wrong qualities, or focus on people who 'look good' on paper as kids but fail to translate to the top level

in terms of youth league stats, some of our players blow away some of the guys who actually make it to the top level for Italy, but the sad fact remains, the level we produce at the primavera is quite poor. Its improved a little bit the last few years, but not hugely - kinda largely carried by Dimarco tbh.

Even Benassi, who was a regular Serie A level midfielder, hasnt even had a club for a year now almost


the worst are the guys we spend proper money on. Salcedo. Tassi. Colidio. etc. Fucking 8m euros on Salcedo alone.

I think in reality this is what happens with a lot of academies. Obviously there are some exceptions but if you look at the output from the average football club it’s probably similar or worse. I think in recent years we’ve actually done a decent job producing professional players. Our biggest issue is we never produce anyone special that can really help the first team.

Dimarco is the exception of the rule

 

[PHM1605]

Yeah, Asllani is really struggling. I think everyone here says the same thing as well. Last year was a bit better, but 90% of this forum agrees Asllani is sghowing little progress and should have gone out on loan last year.

Di Gregorio played two consistent seasons, and made a step up. He played two more consistent seasons and then made another step up.

Agoume showed so much progress that no one in Europe wants to sign him lmao


Lets see where it is in 2 years time, but I suspect we all know the answer to that.


Out of interest, how much of Agoume at Sevilla did you watch?

That club P38 W10D11L17 overall in 23-24, in Agoume's run of starts at the end of the season they P6 W1 D1 L4 lol


And, yeah, I've nto seen him play. But if you wanna go out on a limb and say he's some sort of star player, go for it. But I'm willing to bet real money he never has anything like a significant season for Inter. At this point, every scout in Europe knows the guy, and none of them want to sign him

You are diverging the entire point. Nobody say Agoume is going to be a star and make significant impact for Inter. But returning him to Sevilla to develop with them and sell later for more profit.

You said "none wants to sign", I showed the link new manager wants him back.

I show similar profiles as Gregorio or Pinamonti, even with low point career start, but still nice cash later on. You are bringing that to the point I wanna start him ahead of Mikhy or Hakan (?!?) no, that's not the point. Their career at 21yo is not better than Agoume, they can progress later so Agoume can, too. Under the right development environment ofc, not at Inter.

 

[wera]

Bessa showed sooooo much promise. But there are a lot of Bessas in the world of football. Not every player manages to make the forward step into more than okayish player at this level.

A lot of these players might still be Serie A level players, just not elite enough to be considered by bigger teams. While defensive players tend to be better as the years go by, attacking players like Bessa need to be starters by 24 or they are not gonna make it on a bigger stage.

 

[Raul Duke]

Bessa showed sooooo much promise.

To be fair to Bessa, he did get slammed by injuries early on. I still think the chances of a healthy Bessa making it were slim, but he was the last Primavera player (along with Duncan) who truly excited me.

Actually that Gnoukouri (kid?) also looked decent.

 

[PHM1605]

To be fair to Bessa, he did get slammed by injuries early on. I still think the chances of a healthy Bessa making it were slim, but he was the last Primavera player (along with Duncan) who truly excited me.

Actually that Gnoukouri (kid?) also looked decent.

Gnoukouri was not "talented kid". He fakes his age to dominate children.

 

[Raul Duke]

Gnoukouri was not "talented kid". He fakes his age to dominate children.

Yeah, he had a talent for fraud.

 

[pier]

How much longer must we wait for him? Shall we give him a loan like we did with Longo to see whether he progress?

Even if let say, he does does get some minutes in his next club this season, how much do we could recoup from a player with 1 more year contract left?
Sevilla didn't activate the low price buy option, and should we loan him again in there, for free, despite knowing there is little to no chance he is gonna redeemed?

Just sell him if there is an offer, and put that future resale percentage clause. If it's a loan offer, it'd be better if it's an obligation, if it's loan option, it should be an easy to reach activation.

At last, of course there is always chance he gonna make it but we cannot continue to loan out and wait a long time for players who show no signs of improvement, just for the sake to increase their resale value.

 

[Corrode]

Inter and Inter fans get used to collecting "football star/star player", sign them, majority came at the "prime" age over 27 and over 30yo since Moratti/Pellegrini time (when both was rich and wealthy at the time) to pleased the fans.

Of course when Oaktree wants to reform these habit with integrate some young players, Inter fans and Inter managers seem allergic to do this thing. Implement this young policy needs time, maybe need to cut-off one-two generation of the "boomer" inter fans and boomer managers.

 

[.h.]

I don't think a single inter fan has an objections to a younger team strategy. I'm 100% behind it. But the lesson we should learn from he Suning wra is that it's about spending proper money on good young players not just youth for the sake of it. If you're gonna buy kids splash proper cash on people like bastoni and barella. Four loan failure agoume isn't gonna make it for us.

 

[pier]

Inter and Inter fans are used to collect "football star/star player" in "prime" age over 27 and over 30yo since Moratti/Pellegrini times.

Of course when Oaktree wants to reform these habit with integrate some young players, Inter fans and Inter managers seem allergic to do this thing. Implement this young policy needs time, maybe need to cut-off one-two generation of the "boomer" inter fans and boomer managers.

Perhaps this is too harsh, mate, and why is it suddenly an Oaktree policy? Don't we always strive to sign potential kid for virtually every season?
Why is it that there is always a narrative that says a boomer doesn't want a young player?
I feel sorry for the older generation of Inter fans who have endured so much hardship only to be subjected to derogatory stereotypes.
Saying "cut off that generation" is tantamount to asking them to quit supporting Inter or to genuinely want them to die.

This is what the delusional fans want, they believe that every young player that Inter has developed or acquired is a world-class player, therefore you have to give them as many minutes as they like, only because they are young.

They believed that a youthful player could fix any problem, regardless of the situation.
But they fail to acknowledge that Inter is obviously not a feeder team that will develops players merely to sell them for a profit.

Inter are obligated to win by the supporters, the management, and the owner, and they will always do so.
Marotta has always stated that we need a good balance to win, a combination of young and elderly players, which has proven successful in the last six seasons.

For me, it's obvious that quality matters, regardless of age. If he's good, he plays, plain and simple.

 

[PHM1605]

Perhaps this is too harsh, mate, and why is it suddenly an Oaktree policy? Don't we always strive to sign potential kid for virtually every season?
Why is it that there is always a narrative that says a boomer doesn't want a young player?
I feel sorry for the older generation of Inter fans who have endured so much hardship only to be subjected to derogatory stereotypes.
Saying "cut off that generation" is tantamount to asking them to quit supporting Inter or to genuinely want them to die.

This is what the delusional fans want, they believe that every young player that Inter has developed or acquired is a world-class player, therefore you have to give them as many minutes as they like, only because they are young.

They believed that a youthful player could fix any problem, regardless of the situation.
But they fail to acknowledge that Inter is obviously not a feeder team that will develops players merely to sell them for a profit.

Inter are obligated to win by the supporters, the management, and the owner, and they will always do so.
Marotta has always stated that we need a good balance to win, a combination of young and elderly players, which has proven successful in the last six seasons.

For me, it's obvious that quality matters, regardless of age. If he's good, he plays, plain and simple.

Then you miss half the coin. Selling mediocre kid for tens of millions, multiple times higher than his true value, is the quickest way to generate cash. Much easier than winning CL matches against teams having x10 Inter spending power.

Take full advantage of football inflation world. A starter, if young enough, with 2000 minutes in Serie A or any top leagues under his belt is raising 40m easily. No matter how clumsy he is on the field (cough..Thiaw...cough). Same goes for Juve nobody trio.

Inter is playing well, true. But something must be seriously wrong when we reach the CL final, once in a blue moon of "on the field" playing, but still operating in net negative. The what-so-called "selling-policy" keeping us afloat was the selling of Onana or Pinamonti or Brozovic. 90m sum right there. Think it twice pls, CL 22/23 brings 100m and last season only 60m. You never get that high with "experience" targets only.

 

[Il Drago]

Lets run some data:

Player	Status aged 18	Status aged 21	Status aged 24
Bisseck	Regular player for Koln 2, some games for Koln	Starter in Danish superliga	TBC but squad player for Inter already

This is an oversimplification of Bisseck career so far that doesn't show the whole picture.

After his 3 appearances with Koln, he gets loaned out to Holstein Kiel in 2 Liga in January 2019. Just 3 appearances and 15 minutes played in 6 months.

The following season he is loaned to Roda at Netherlands second division. Just 14 appearances (7 as a starter - 4 in the league, 3 in the cup) and 752 minutes played.

Then he gets loaned out to Guimaraes in Portugal where he didn't play at all and he was sent to their B team.

In the next season he went to Denmark and that's where he turned his career around and started getting regular playing time.

So till he was 21 his career was full of failures.

 

[.h.]

This is an oversimplification of Bisseck career so far that doesn't show the whole picture.

After his 3 appearances with Koln, he gets loaned out to Holstein Kiel in 2 Liga in January 2019. Just 3 appearances and 15 minutes played in 6 months.

The following season he is loaned to Roda at Netherlands second division. Just 14 appearances (7 as a starter - 4 in the league, 3 in the cup) and 752 minutes played.

Then he gets loaned out to Guimaraes in Portugal where he didn't play at all and he was sent to their B team.

In the next season he went to Denmark and that's where he turned his career around and started getting regular playing time.

So till he was 21 his career was full of failures.

the season he turned 21, though, he had a full season in danish superliga, the season he turned 22 he was bought by his club. So arguably, he's 2 years ahead of Bisseck at the same age because he had a club who took him on loan then wanted to keep him permanently.

But more to the point... he developed. He took steps forward.

Agoume hasnt taken a single significant step forward in the last few seasons

 

[PHM1605]

the season he turned 21, though, he had a full season in danish superliga, the season he turned 22 he was bought by his club. So arguably, he's 2 years ahead of Bisseck at the same age because he had a club who took him on loan then wanted to keep him permanently.

But more to the point... he developed. He took steps forward.

Agoume hasnt taken a single significant step forward in the last few seasons

Agoume was a starter at Brest and Troyes. Ligue 1 >>> Danish league. After escaping Inter and recovering from his injury he was a starter at Sevilla.

Sevilla wants to keep him permanently. They just don't have 8m. Aarhus bought Bisseck for ... 1.7m, much lower amount.

Agoume does have a lot of progress. You ignore all of such is another matter.