NBA

[Hasan]

Last night we had Bron on ESPN and Bronnie on ESPN 2. I might be crazy but they could be first father/son duo in one NBA team, not because kid is so good (I didn't even watch him) but because media hype and everything.

 

[Adriano@10]

Phil Jackson had quit on the Bulls. Sure, there was a long dispute with that Krause character, but he had decided to quit as well. He only stayed in 1997 because the players asked him to.

The problem was the lock out. He had announced it before the lockout and the Bulls were stuck in limbo. He actually "retired" I think, so it was even funnier.

Michael Jordan was like if the season won't take place (for those who don't know or remember, just a couple of years back the entire baseball season was cancelled for the same reason) and Phil isn't around, he might as well retire.

Had Phil Jackson delayed his decision until after the season restarted, we may have still seen Michael Jordan around without Phil, assuming he'd approve the new coach.

Phil Jackson was then between Los Angeles and New York. The Knicks were the surprise Eastern Conference champions as an 8 seed and that was the beginning of the end. Within 2 seasons they had traded Ewing away and offered Allan Houston that big deal that put the franchise in ruins after he got injured since it held so much cap space. Phil was also lucky because that's also when James Dolan came into the picture, the man synonomous with sporting incompetence. How those NHL Rangers managed to win silverware is remarkable, probably because he never pretended to know about hockey

I dont want to dispute anything you said as most of my knowledge from that time comes from interviews in the aftermath as i was 8 when this whol shit went down.
Anyways i m just saying that from interviews from both jackson and jordan to me it looked like the Bulls wanted phil out no matter what and jordan according to him told the bulls front office before hand that he would not play under any other coach. So me saying this was the stupidest decision in sports is based on the fact (assumption) that the bulls front office knew they we re gonna lose the GOAT if they went through with it and they did it anyways.
now i know that phil also wanted to leave but again if i was the owner i would have done anything to try and keep MJ around but from the looks of it they did not care that much cause they thought it was time for a re build anyways.

Also the fact that Phil joined the Knicks later on shows imho that he could have been convinced to stay in chicago if they had thrown enough money at him. I ean the guy took the lakers who had talent but were very troubled at that time and he then took a job at the knicks in 14 now anybody who takes a job at the knicks after say the 2000s does it only for the money as it was well established that that franchise is a huge shit show.

Again just my two cents and all this is based on mj saying mgm knew he d leave if jackson goes.

 

[ADRossi]

Reports are we might trade Andre Drummond. Finally. Dude sucks.

 

[brehme1989]

I dont want to dispute anything you said as most of my knowledge from that time comes from interviews in the aftermath as i was 8 when this whol shit went down.
Anyways i m just saying that from interviews from both jackson and jordan to me it looked like the Bulls wanted phil out no matter what and jordan according to him told the bulls front office before hand that he would not play under any other coach. So me saying this was the stupidest decision in sports is based on the fact (assumption) that the bulls front office knew they we re gonna lose the GOAT if they went through with it and they did it anyways.
now i know that phil also wanted to leave but again if i was the owner i would have done anything to try and keep MJ around but from the looks of it they did not care that much cause they thought it was time for a re build anyways.

Also the fact that Phil joined the Knicks later on shows imho that he could have been convinced to stay in chicago if they had thrown enough money at him. I ean the guy took the lakers who had talent but were very troubled at that time and he then took a job at the knicks in 14 now anybody who takes a job at the knicks after say the 2000s does it only for the money as it was well established that that franchise is a huge shit show.

Again just my two cents and all this is based on mj saying mgm knew he d leave if jackson goes.

Yeah, I'm not denying that the Bulls management fucked up. They sure did. They're one of the worst and Michael Jordan was the only thing that kept them relevant, while Phil Jackson's presence made sure that Jordan would keep winning.

Phil going to NY at that age and time was a big mistake by Dolan. It was just a means to appease the crowds. He always does shit moves like that which the fanbase actually supports, but fundamentally make no sense. This is probably why I get why the Bulls management may have been worse. Their moves never made sense or had any backing. With the Knicks, almost everyone supported the moves. Isiah Thomas, great player so probably a good basketball mind. A terrible executive though even if he could spot talent. Donnie Walsh, great ideas, almost saved the Knicks then clashed with Dolan for wanting Melo as a free agent in the summer whilst Dolan wanted to "win now" and traded half the team for Melo and an ageing Billups. Again, most of the fanbase applauded that move. But anyone who knows anything understands that Dolan at NY is the main problem no matter how much he spends. It's like Inter buying Kuzmanovic and Mundigayi but instead paying them with De Bruyne and Neymar salaries. They're still shit moves even if you cover them with gold.

In Chicago the problem became history and their main issue is their owner Reinsdorf is cheap as fuck.

 

[Adriano@10]

Reports are we might trade Andre Drummond. Finally. Dude sucks.

Really always liked the dude and think hes kind of unlucky to play in this period his playing style would have fit way better in the 90 s early 00s.

Dont know many other players nowday that can get you 20 points and 20 boards he s one of em.

 

[ADRossi]

Really always liked the dude and think hes kind of unlucky to play in this period his playing style would have fit way better in the 90 s early 00s.

Dont know many other players nowday that can get you 20 points and 20 boards he s one of em.

They're empty numbers man. He doesn't actually impact games. At best he can be your Chris Bosh (aka third piece of a championship team). He's basically DeAndre Jordan from those Clippers teams of the 2010s, with a bigger offensive role.

You're right that he's playing in the wrong era, and that's the problem. He's a relic of the past.

 

[CoolMan44]

Reports are we might trade Andre Drummond. Finally. Dude sucks.

Just don't trade him to us.

 

[dynasty27]

 

[Fapuccino]

Reports are we might trade Andre Drummond. Finally. Dude sucks.

Why? He's leading the league in rebounds, and still gets you 16-17 pts a game.

 

[Adriano@10]

I d still be curious to see Drummond on a 3pt shooting team surround him with 2 great 3 point shooters and ther s gonna be troubles imho as you ll either have to give up the the easz bucket on the inside or you ll have to give a bit more space to the shooters cause imho drummond once in the paint is almost unstoppable. Still think that combining Blake and drummond is not a good match for this current NBA would have been great in the mid 2000s but not now.

I think him and tray young in atl could be a very interesting mash up ofcourse they d need to add other pieces to that team in order to really compete.

On a side note i cannot wait to see Lukas first playoff game or lets saz the mavs first playoff game i m really intrigued as to how far they can take it and how good they ll look. I personally dont expect luka to have any troubles to adapt he already won a euro league finals MVP soo he should be used to it.
I do think that they have the potential to beat anz team but they re gonna be outsiders to both LA teams,denver,huston, phily and the bucks.
And i d expect them to go out against any of them.

 

[brehme1989]

Firstly not that big a difference, secondly it ignores context. The Jordan/Pippen Bulls played muuuuuch weaker competition that Wilt running into the 60's Celtics meat-grinder. Put Wilt in Russell's spot and he'd have 13 by himself.

I stand by my point that is better to have the chemistry and camaraderie than not. It's not meaningless. Us adding Lukaku's positive presence, and getting rid of the Icardi/Peresic pettiness, is a positive for this team on the field.


Myth. Jordan was too marketable at the time, and the mainstream media did everything they could to make people think the Bulls would keep winning had he not retired.

Their tune is a little different now that he's no longer a money-maker:
https://www.papercitymag.com/cultur...ush-michael-jordan-housto-rockets-nba-finals/

...which anyone paying close attention to his career could also have told you at the time. Interesting that Jordan is supposedly the GOAT, but never won anything at NC, obviously a much smaller pond than the NBA, after James Worthy left (James Worthy being easily the best player on the NC champion team... Jordan was an afterthought by comparison). And, Pippen did better on a Jordan-less Bulls than Jordan did without Pippen. Why did the Bulls only drop 2 games after Jordan's first retirement? My favorite is how people like to forget that Jordan came back in '95 but got crushed by the Magic (spoiler: because the Magic had taken Horace Grant off the Bulls), who were summarily swept by the Rockets. Look at what Hakeem did to Robinson and Shaq that year. I feel embarrassed on Luc Longley's behalf just thinking about that matchup in the finals.


...but to get back to the point, once again. Lukaku's positive locker-room presence is a good thing.

Just wanted to move this here so that the discussion can continue. I think you have some fair points but at the same time it's quite unfair to put a blame on Jordan for 1995 since he barely had returned with less than 20 games during that season just before playoffs. It's been almost 2 years since he had played professional basketball.

As for the 1994 Bulls, it is fair to hype up Pippen but at the same time, not really that much. He did step up, but he played for a team that had won 3 in a row. Michael Jordan before Pippen took the shittiest NBA team and made them a playoff team instantly. The reason he started winning was the change of his style, he viewed both Pippen and Grant as low quality teammates before Phil Jackson told him to starting trusting them more. Pippen was a very good player but he gets overrated a lot now. Pippen made the Bulls a strong team, Jordan made them champions.


A Houston vs Bulls matchup in 1995 would have been amazing. Clyde Drexler's rematch vs Jodan, the guy who was the real leader of Houston during those playoffs, and Hakeem fucking Olajuwon.But that young Shaq vs Hakeem duel was also a nice story book entry.
That era may have been weaker in terms of top weight compared to the 60s, but damn, everything after 2010 has been so pale in comparison.

 

[Ziyad]

Unlike you Brehme (all valid points) I think Pippen is underrated and not given enough credit. Bulls weren’t doing great or winning when they got to the playoffs without him while they did win without MJ plus if u see the record without MJ u would be surprised how close it was when MJ was there.

 

[ChillBro]

Unlike you Brehme (all valid points) I think Pippen is underrated and not given enough credit. Bulls weren’t doing great or winning when they got to the playoffs without him while they did win without MJ plus if u see the record without MJ u would be surprised how close it was when MJ was there.

if MJ doesn't retire. my bulls would have won 8 in a row... and i say that as a huge hakeem fan. Jordan was relentless...the greatest competitor of our generation. So glad i grew up watching my home town team build a dynasty with the GOAT.

 

[brehme1989]

Chicago with Jordan under Phil would win everything. I think that's almost a certainty. Granted, we were deprived of an immense series between Houston (Hakeem + Drexler) vs Chicago (Jordan). I think this would have gone to 7. But at the same time I'm not even sure if Houston would make the NBA Finals in 1995 if they don't win 1994. Drexler wanted to be traded to Houston because they had Hakeem, they won the season prior and he has a long history in the state. But had they failed to win, maybe a more attractive option would appear since they were sort of struggling at the time he went there.

Michael Jordan's retirement is such a mystery. What do you think is the truth or at least the closest version to being true?

The betting thing I don't buy for one second. This guy was a gambling addict throughout his career, so it wasn't an issue.

His dad thing is a great story, had he not returned to play for another 3 + 2 years. I could have bought it if he hadn't returned to the NBA. But someone may say that he sucked in baseball so he wanted to finish his sports career on a high doing what he's the best at. Okay, I could accept that. But then he went to play for the freaking Wizardss, doing everything from owning the club, deciding who's the coach, who gets traded and shit. It was unreal. You can call this mid-life crisis to defend the narrative, but I don't know. This does not seem like a guy who would have quit basketball at his peak but loss of parent affects people in a different way. But he didn't really retire until 3 months after the death of his father so it leaves room for questions.

Another one I heard was apparently abusive steroid usage. Which sounds naive. I mean, if Jordan took that shit then probably so did everyone else.

The NBA forcing him out makes no sense. He was the most marketable person on the planet. Even Michael Jackson was probably lagging in terms of marketability. You don't bench your star player.... Was he fixing games? Doubtful when he was winning them all the time. And the NBA wouldn't care so much as long as it would lead to higher tv ratings honestly.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense. But it probably doesn't have to if it was his own decision based on how he was feeling.

Some articles from that announcement, always interesting to see contemporary reactions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...-retire/dec0e723-f25e-407c-a560-78b9c4690d35/

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/sports/basketball/100793bkn-jordan.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-10-07-mn-43272-story.html

 

[ChillBro]

Chicago with Jordan under Phil would win everything. I think that's almost a certainty. Granted, we were deprived of an immense series between Houston (Hakeem + Drexler) vs Chicago (Jordan). I think this would have gone to 7. But at the same time I'm not even sure if Houston would make the NBA Finals in 1995 if they don't win 1994. Drexler wanted to be traded to Houston because they had Hakeem, they won the season prior and he has a long history in the state. But had they failed to win, maybe a more attractive option would appear since they were sort of struggling at the time he went there.

Michael Jordan's retirement is such a mystery. What do you think is the truth or at least the closest version to being true?

The betting thing I don't buy for one second. This guy was a gambling addict throughout his career, so it wasn't an issue.

His dad thing is a great story, had he not returned to play for another 3 + 2 years. I could have bought it if he hadn't returned to the NBA. But someone may say that he sucked in baseball so he wanted to finish his sports career on a high doing what he's the best at. Okay, I could accept that. But then he went to play for the freaking Wizardss, doing everything from owning the club, deciding who's the coach, who gets traded and shit. It was unreal. You can call this mid-life crisis to defend the narrative, but I don't know. This does not seem like a guy who would have quit basketball at his peak but loss of parent affects people in a different way. But he didn't really retire until 3 months after the death of his father so it leaves room for questions.

Another one I heard was apparently abusive steroid usage. Which sounds naive. I mean, if Jordan took that shit then probably so did everyone else.

The NBA forcing him out makes no sense. He was the most marketable person on the planet. Even Michael Jackson was probably lagging in terms of marketability. You don't bench your star player.... Was he fixing games? Doubtful when he was winning them all the time. And the NBA wouldn't care so much as long as it would lead to higher tv ratings honestly.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense. But it probably doesn't have to if it was his own decision based on how he was feeling.

Some articles from that announcement, always interesting to see contemporary reactions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...-retire/dec0e723-f25e-407c-a560-78b9c4690d35/

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/sports/basketball/100793bkn-jordan.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-10-07-mn-43272-story.html

great question - i honestly don't know but i suspect it was some conspiracy level stuff. I don't think it was steroids - that to me seems like total BS. I do think it may have had some connection with gambling, his dad's murder and some mob or criminal stuff that his dad or him maybe had gotten into. I am sure it will all come out after he is gone and all the 'real stories' start to come out. It is fascinating though - to have the greatest player of all time just suddenly retire and then come back. crazy. what a time that was to be a fan - i gotta tell you.

a bulls/rockets championship would have been an incredible battle. The bulls really would have had no answer for hakeem. i wouldn't be surpised if they tried to put grant or rodman or even pippen (depending on when they would have gotten rodman if jordan had never retired) on him but he would have dominated. but as good as drexler was - he could not stop Jordan. That was the issue - noone could stop him.

 

[Adriano@10]

Chicago with Jordan under Phil would win everything. I think that's almost a certainty. Granted, we were deprived of an immense series between Houston (Hakeem + Drexler) vs Chicago (Jordan). I think this would have gone to 7. But at the same time I'm not even sure if Houston would make the NBA Finals in 1995 if they don't win 1994. Drexler wanted to be traded to Houston because they had Hakeem, they won the season prior and he has a long history in the state. But had they failed to win, maybe a more attractive option would appear since they were sort of struggling at the time he went there.

Michael Jordan's retirement is such a mystery. What do you think is the truth or at least the closest version to being true?

The betting thing I don't buy for one second. This guy was a gambling addict throughout his career, so it wasn't an issue.

His dad thing is a great story, had he not returned to play for another 3 + 2 years. I could have bought it if he hadn't returned to the NBA. But someone may say that he sucked in baseball so he wanted to finish his sports career on a high doing what he's the best at. Okay, I could accept that. But then he went to play for the freaking Wizardss, doing everything from owning the club, deciding who's the coach, who gets traded and shit. It was unreal. You can call this mid-life crisis to defend the narrative, but I don't know. This does not seem like a guy who would have quit basketball at his peak but loss of parent affects people in a different way. But he didn't really retire until 3 months after the death of his father so it leaves room for questions.

Another one I heard was apparently abusive steroid usage. Which sounds naive. I mean, if Jordan took that shit then probably so did everyone else.

The NBA forcing him out makes no sense. He was the most marketable person on the planet. Even Michael Jackson was probably lagging in terms of marketability. You don't bench your star player.... Was he fixing games? Doubtful when he was winning them all the time. And the NBA wouldn't care so much as long as it would lead to higher tv ratings honestly.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense. But it probably doesn't have to if it was his own decision based on how he was feeling.

Some articles from that announcement, always interesting to see contemporary reactions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...-retire/dec0e723-f25e-407c-a560-78b9c4690d35/

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/sports/basketball/100793bkn-jordan.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-10-07-mn-43272-story.html

Why does it have to be something deeper? I can live with the explanation that it was partly due to the bulls not keeping jackson. Like the guy had nothing to prove to anybody and he probably could not be bothered to restart in another city. Maybe the thought of retiring was in his mind before and then with the phil jackson saga he just went lick fuck it. Maybe he did not wanna ruin his legacy in chicago by moving and neither did he want the mgm to get the upper hand over him as he told them that he d only stay if phil stays.


For me the bigger question is why the fuck did he come back (dont get me wrong i m grate full he did). Then again maybe he just woke up one morning and felt like playing in the NBA again. I bet many players go through that it s just that they usually are not MJ so that every team would be more than happy to have him on.

 

[brehme1989]

1993 man, not 1998.

He returned to play with the Wizards which he owned because he had some side bet with the players that he was dissing, telling them he'd whoop them pretty much. And some were like "this dude is 40+, is he joking?". And so we had it

 

[Adriano@10]

1993 man, not 1998.

He returned to play with the Wizards which he owned because he had some side bet with the players that he was dissing, telling them he'd whoop them pretty much. And some were like "this dude is 40+, is he joking?". And so we had it

Well as i said man the 93 why dont you believe the baseball story? Sounds pretty legit to me. Guy dreams about following his fathers footsteps guy reaches everything he could possibly reach in another area and gets the chance to try and follow his dads footsteps.......
I mean if it was his dream as a kid then why the fuck not? He had nothing to prove anymore in 93 and he probably had all the money he needed.

Like put yourself in his shoes if tomorrow you d get a chance to play for inter would you not try? even if you knew that you d not belong quality wise?
Again this is assuming it was his childhood dream.

 

[Alex de Large]

same here

 

[rfU]