Oriundi Reloaded!

[Bluenine]

One of the more heated arguements in Italian football these days is where you stand on the "Oriundi" debate. Or more specifically, should they be allowed to play for La Nazionale??

Oriundi is a term used to describe foreign players of Italian origin (at least one of whose ancestors emigrated from Italy) who then immigrate "back" to Italy. There was a time when Oriundi played a large part in the success of Azzurri, and from the sounds of it, they may play a large part once again... Perhaps there are lessons to be learnt from the past...


"If they can die for Italy, they can play for Italy" - Vittorio Pozzo

In fascist Italy of the 30s, many returning south american players were automatically given dual citizenship (ie no need for naturalization). At the risk of conscription, of course, which is how Pozzo justified his use of Oriundi in winning 2 World Cups. Most people recognize that the Oriundi played a critical role in winning the 1934 World Cup for the Azzurri, and it is quite likely that Italy would not have won without them. Orsi, Monti, & Guaita played a key role in the championship where the Italian squad had as many as 5 Oriundi. Later, there have been many other famous Oriundi including Sivori, Andreolo, Altafini, Schiaffino, etc as Italy benefited from their services till the 60's. I believe that most Italians are proud of their Oriundi and in my humble opinion, they should be. The rules at that time permitted the use of Oriundi in this fashion, so fair play. Great players are great players.


"For the loser now, will be later to win... for the times they are a-changing" - Bob Dylan

Pak Doo-Ik. That changed everything.


Continued at: http://footballspeak.com/post/2011/08/01/Oriundi-Reloaded!.aspx

 

[TGDella]

Nice piece. So this is topical again...what does everyone think about Mancini's anti-oriundi stance? I know it's difficult to put ourselves in his position as most of us on here aren't Italian (or me only half) and there's a whole load of cultural history attached to it, but I can't help feeling like I disagree. I'm not a very nationalistic person, nation states are just imaginary lines on a map at the end of the day...I think if someone lives in Italy and feels a pride in the country then I don't see the problem. I'm interested to hear other views though.

Also, nice goal but Eder yesterday, saved azzurri asses.

 

[thatdude]

IMO you should play for the country your born in, unless you move there before the age of 16. Just my opinion.

 

[J..]

Franco Vazquez has lived in Italy for two and a half years. A guy that has lived in a country for such a short period of time shouldn't be able to compete for a national team in any sport. In this case is it because his mom was born in Italy but it would only make sense in my mind if both parents were Italians.

Then you have other cases like for example the one with Ludovic Obraniak on the Polish national team who was eligible to play for Poland because his grandfather was polish. Obraniak never had lived in Poland and couldn't speak a single word of the language when he was selected for his first match.

We have seen how this can be destructive lately in the World Cup in handball where Qatar ended second because most of their team consists of players from different European countries. I can't imagine that many of them have decided to play for Qatar because they feel a love for the country but more because they got a lot of cash and secondly because they suddenly were able to compete for a world cup team.

Been raised in a family that lives aboard in an another country for your whole life could make sense when it comes to picking an another national team just like you saw with for example Trezeguet. However the cases with Obraniak, the Qatar handball players and to some extent with Vazquez are just wrong.

With all this said has Eder lived in Italy for 9 years and I can therefore imagine he has choosed the possibility not just because he wanted to play for a national team but also because he likes the country he now represents. Then I can't see a problem with it.

 

[victor_inter]

If they love the country and do feel that they owe something to the nation they have lived in for years then i dont see a problem. In franco's case, maybe he likes italy more than argentina, perhaps he has more friends in italy and he is more closely attached to his italian compatriots.

 

[Wings]

IMO you should play for the country your born in, unless you move there before the age of 16. Just my opinion.

What about all the kids who happen to be born in and grow up in foreign countries because of circumstances, like their fathers being professional footballers playing overseas? And why should 16 be the cutoff age?

(Incidentally, are you opposed to the US NT using players like Brooks or Fabian Johnson, who afaik have lived in Germany all their lives from birth?)

 

[Pimpin]

fif already knows my stance on this issue

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also, watch those whose national teams benefit from a certain rule advocate for it, but draw a limit at a certain rule which has screwed their national team

 

[TGDella]

What about all the kids who happen to be born in and grow up in foreign countries because of circumstances, like their fathers being professional footballers playing overseas? And why should 16 be the cutoff age?

(Incidentally, are you opposed to the US NT using players like Brooks or Fabian Johnson, who afaik have lived in Germany all their lives from birth?)

I definitely agree with this, if both your parents are from one country but you happen to be born in another then I think it's very easy to retain the national identity of their original country.

I understand some of the points being made suggesting that a player whose only been in Italy a couple of years shouldnt be playing for them, but my questions are a) where do you draw the line? and b) even if someone is just doing it to play international football, why does it really matter? is it right to legislate to make sure everyone playing international football has pride in their country? some people don't really care about the country they're from, and construct their identities from other definitions of themselves that don't stem from where they happen to have been born - something noone has any control over anyway. It seems harsh to disallow such a person from competing in a tournament like the world cup and being remembered from it. i



Clearly not happening anytime soon, but let's imagine I was a footballer...I myself was born and raised in England, but am half-Italian and do to some extent identify myself as Italian as well as English/British(we wont get into that debate now!). My first choice team would be England but if there was plenty of great English players in my position (lol) but not Italians then I'd take immense pride at playing for Italy if picked, the country of my father and half of my family, and that I do consider myself part of even though I haven't lived there. Is that such a big problem, that it wouldnt be my first choice? Feel free to take my logic apart on that, I'm not sensitive about my nationality. I guess my main point is that people who don't have it might find it hard to imagine what having a dual-nationality is like...I value both countries.

 

[J..]

b) even if someone is just doing it to play international football, why does it really matter?

As I wrote has the Qatarian handball federation spent a lot of money on nationalize different European players as a way to gain a strong team. Then suddenly is the national teams not just about pride and loyality but also aswell about which country has the most money to spend on 'signing' new players. This is the major reason for why I'm against this idea of everyone can be whatever they went immediately.

I agree that we are living in a much more globalized world and it is therefore difficult to tell what nationality you feel the most. The cases I mentioned with Eder (lived 9 years in Italy) and Trezeguet (Born to a French footballer that played in Argentina) makes sense to me. However the misuse of it we saw from Qatars handball federation and the case with Obraniak who is eligible just because of his grandfather and has never lived in the country or speak a single word of their language is just wrong to me. I agree this is a so-called grey area.

 

[TGDella]

As I wrote has the Qatarian handball federation spent a lot of money on nationalize different European players as a way to gain a strong team. Then suddenly is the national teams not just about pride and loyality but also aswell about which country has the most money to spend on 'signing' new players. This is the major reason for why I'm against this idea of everyone can be whatever they went immediately.

I agree that we are living in a much more globalized world and it is therefore difficult to tell what nationality you feel the most. The cases I mentioned with Eder (lived 9 years in Italy) and Trezeguet (Born to a French footballer that played in Argentina) makes sense to me. However the misuse of it we saw from Qatars handball federation and the case with Obraniak who is eligible just because of his grandfather and has never lived in the country or speak a single word of their language is just wrong to me. I agree this is a so-called grey area.

That's fair, if money is the incentive then that seems to be breaking with the spirit of international sport somehow...but I don't think that's the case with Vasquez or Eder. In fact, I'm pretty sure most NT players have to give their fee to charity, I know that's what happens with the England team who have to give it to Help for Heroes. So if money is not involved, what's the problem then?

 

[Bluenine]

In this age of dual nationalities, I think this has to be the decision of the individual. You cannot put arbitrary rules like "country of birth" or "if both parents are from a particular country". Its the country you identify with, and that only the individual can decide.

Unfortunately a lot of players take advantage of this and play for a different country for money. That is their choice and their shame. But we cannot allow such people to dictate the rules for the larger majority who play for national pride.

My wife and me have different nationalities, and we live in a third country. I think my son should have a choice of representing whichever country he identifies with most.

IMO the only change I would suggest is that FIFA should have stricter rules regarding representing different nations. Once you represent any nation once you are 18, friendly or otherwise, that should be it. For e.g., Costa should have never been allowed to represent Spain after playing for Brasil NT for 2 friendlies.

 

[J..]

In fact, I'm pretty sure most NT players have to give their fee to charity, I know that's what happens with the England team who have to give it to Help for Heroes. So if money is not involved, what's the problem then?

It is not the case in Denmark. Actually the Danish FA and the federation that represents the Danish footballers had a massive conflict until two weeks ago about payments and that is why they talked about the Danish national team maybe would have had to fill the squad with amateur players. The Danish FA wanted to decrease the amount of payment which the national team players didn't want. All the English national football players are having a insanely high wage compared to Danish players from the Danish league and that is why they can 'afford' to pay it all to charity. Denmark is compared to its size a pretty good handball team (and we invented the game btw) and I know Qatar has tried to buy at least one of our handball players but he said no because his country meant more to him than a few million pounds. My only question is why shouldn't this be a possibility in football too? I don't know if there are rules on this matter.

As said do I not have a problem with Eder playing for the Italian national team. However I'm a bit sceptic about Vazquez but it is still not something that pisses me of that much. Obraniak however...

 

[Redbullsnation]

Hey, I think times are changing even if Mancini or Sacchi cannot adapt. If players want to represent the Azzurri, then why not let them?

 

[victor_inter]

italy will celebrate if argentina win the world cup. Messi's forefathers are of italian descent.

 

[bandiera]

Eder apparently had interest from Brazil, he turned them down for Italy. Vazquez's mother is from Padova for heavens sake.

A big problem with national teams today is globalization. I'd be curious to see who would still show up in the national team if they were obligated to sacrifice a big part of the club season to represent their country and they weren't paid for wearing the national team shirt. For example, in the case of Italy, 40 years ago I'd wager everyone would still wear the azzurro shirt even if that was the case. Nowadays, I doubt Buffon, the captain, would accept that.

Just wanted to add there were a lot of oriundo in the 1950s because a big chunk of the national team had been lost in the '49 Superga Air disaster.

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The World Cup used to be the footballing spectacle. At the highest level nowadays, its become just as important the Champions League and young players try to use it as a springboard for a better club move. Parma players and Donadoni are fighting on despite not being paid for months, while Ghana and Cameroon nearly boycotted the World Cup because the federations were late paying their bonuses. Ghana were considering going on strike for their final group game against Portugal, which was only prevented by the delivery of 3 million dollars in cash from the President's private jet.

Am I saying all players today care more about money than their country? No. Am I saying money and their ambitions has become more important while their country become less important compared to in the past? Yes.

 

[victor_inter]

It depends on the player and the country they come from. Players who are already wealthy would utilize the world cup to elevate their status to that of a top notch player. In messi's case, helping his team win or come close to winning the wc would constitute legendary status. However, he is not the greatest player ever. Hell, guys like fat ronaldo im his prime, marco van basten and ronaldinho in their respective primes were better. I said 'prime' so now dont chastise me.

 

[Kakaroto]

They should play for whomever they fucking want. In fact come play for DR.