Sebastiano Esposito

[PHM1605]

Well no. We gave Esposito a chance, we gave Pinamonti a chance, we gave Carboni a chance.

They weren't good enough to earn more playing time and keeping them at Inter didn't make sense. The point still stands, there haven't been good enough kids who would have taken their spot and place in the squad so that they would have actually played some proper minutes.

This (Inter) is a winning business, not to develop kids, make profits (out of kids) or any shit like that.

Winning negative business you mean. Thats why our account balance is red every year. So there must be much space to improve.

"Making profits is shit"?!?

 

[Adriano@10]

Balotelli and Santon eventually didn’t work out at Inter for different reasons but it wasn’t really due to a lack of talent. Saying they failed is just not correct. They performed well in some high pressure situations for the club. We sold both for good money.

Balotelli and Santon are reasons to give more kids a chance, not less.

Faild in terms of they did not turn out good enough to stay at inter and be regular contributors, heck they turned out to be not good enough for top clubs period. Wether the reason was talent or not does not matter. My point was to illustrate that there is no guarantee that if you give these players playing time that you ll have a better result than loaning them out. Many more top players at top clubs were at non top clubs or loaned out when they were under 20 than top players that spent all their careers at top clubs.
Also we gave other players chances that were young but that simply did not work out, heck arna is one of them, then there was karamoh, castagnos, pinamonti and probably many more i ve forgotten that got a chance here and were not able to take it. And no if the coach does not play you it does not mean you did not get a fair chance maybe you just were not good enough in training......

That was 15 years ago now. You’re telling me we haven’t had a single talent worth giving a chance to from then till Dimarco? Come on man

Where are all those supposedly super talented players that we did not give a chance to now? Maybe if they spend their prime in lower to midtable serie a teams our scouts and our coaches were right when hey judged em.

Again only pirlo and coutinho come to mind as players we did not give enough chances to that really made it big....
The assumption that because we did not give em chances they never amounted to nothing seems a bit far fetched as we usually dont hold on to them that long.

 

[.h.]

Faild in terms of they did not turn out good enough to stay at inter and be regular contributors, heck they turned out to be not good enough for top clubs period. Wether the reason was talent or not does not matter. My point was to illustrate that there is no guarantee that if you give these players playing time that you ll have a better result than loaning them out. Many more top players at top clubs were at non top clubs or loaned out when they were under 20 than top players that spent all their careers at top clubs.
Also we gave other players chances that were young but that simply did not work out, heck arna is one of them, then there was karamoh, castagnos, pinamonti and probably many more i ve forgotten that got a chance here and were not able to take it. And no if the coach does not play you it does not mean you did not get a fair chance maybe you just were not good enough in training......


Where are all those supposedly super talented players that we did not give a chance to now? Maybe if they spend their prime in lower to midtable serie a teams our scouts and our coaches were right when hey judged em.

Again only pirlo and coutinho come to mind as players we did not give enough chances to that really made it big....
The assumption that because we did not give em chances they never amounted to nothing seems a bit far fetched as we usually dont hold on to them that long.

you can find a lot of inter primavera down the local restaurants waiting tables...

 

[.h.]

as a separate interesting discussion, theres a question about the obligation of youth teams.

Are they:
1 - simply to produce talent for the first team
2 - To give the kids the best shot at a professional football career
3 - To help them develop in life, in general, with a focus on football?

I asusme in italy as well but Iknow in the UK, for example, most youth teams will give scholarships for their kids to go to the best schools, make sure they do exams, etc, so that they can have options if they drop out of football. I think Inter is actually not bad at point (2) in the last 10 years or so, where historically we produced a lot of people who couldnt even make it as a pro, we seemed to have really improved that lately, but we're not so good at (1) yet.

 

[CafeCordoba]

Winning negative business you mean. Thats why our account balance is red every year. So there must be much space to improve.

"Making profits is shit"?!?

Read the room man. I'm talking about football. Winning trophies.

 

[Il Drago]

Well no. We gave Esposito a chance, we gave Pinamonti a chance, we gave Carboni a chance.

I will give you Pinamonti. I will even give you Esposito even though his time was limited. But Carboni? Sorry but no. We gave Carboni 20 minutes in 5 games. Threw him in the dying minutes of games we were trailing. That's not giving a chance. That was desperation because Inzaghi didn't know what else to try.

And winning business is a weak argument when you have City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG giving playing time to youngsters. Serious playing time. Not garbage minutes.

 

[.h.]

why do we make it sound like carboni is written off? he's out on loan, which he'll almost inevitably come back from. he plays a position that doesnt obviously fit our formation, yet we've decided to keep him for time being, isnt that a testimony of investment into him, rather than discarding him?


Who in Liverpool is home grown? TAA and Curtis Jones? Bayern? Its just Thomas Muller and Musiala (if that counts, I think it probably does but one to discuss), Aleksander Pvalovic as well but I have no fucking ide awho he is or if he's any good

City have a couple of kids on the periphery (McAtee, Rico Lewis), but isnt Phil Foden the main one that has broken through from their academy? or even only one?

At Real, the only people who've made it from the youth teams (does Valverede count? Not sure) is like Nacho, Dani Carvajal (who went out, really, on loan to Bayer for a season), Lucas Vazquez (again, had a development loan + a lot of B team experience), Fran Garcia (development loan + sale)


I think people are tinted by the Barca light

or if your point is about giving playing time to youth, in general, irrespective of where they've come from.. the big difference is for Inter, an expensive youth player is 5-10mil euros, and quality is pretty fuckied mixed. For Barca, PSG, Real, etc, they'll spend 10-60mil on a youth player.

 

[PHM1605]

Read the room man. I'm talking about football. Winning trophies.

How can you claim winning trophies is exclusive to developing kids? If any healthy financial is increasing your probability of winning things. And you cant deny we are doing terrible in finance.

We wasted tons of resource on expensive trash with zero resale value. See what Correa and Arnau are causing? The flops last year were Sanchez Cuadrado and Klaassen. The best one? Bisseck. You see the pattern.

I am glad that Oaktree thinks differently and starts buying serious gems from all over the world. Let's see next seasons if we are losing trophies, like you fear. Or we still win and gaining profits in the meantime, from those 2005-2006 newbies. Exactly how Juve is funding their whole Mercato.

 

[.h.]

How can you claim winning trophies is exclusive to developing kids? If any healthy financial is increasing your probability of winning things. And you cant deny we are doing terrible in finance.

We wasted tons of resource on expensive trash with zero resale value. See what Correa and Arnau are causing? The flops last year were Sanchez Cuadrado and Klaassen. The best one? Bisseck. You see the pattern.

I am glad that Oaktree thinks differently and starts buying serious gems from all over the world. Let's see next seasons if we are losing trophies, like you fear. Or we still win and gaining profits in the meantime, from those 2005-2006 newbies. Exactly how Juve is funding their whole Mercato.

Dont think anyone can dispute Cuadradro/Klasson/Correa/Arnau were a waste of time and space, I said as much several times before we signed most of them.

But whats your alternative? We go with Satriano, Zanotti, Esposito and Agoume instead?

We just dont really have the talent in our youth.


In terms of the Oaktree buying stategy, I'm 100% happy for us to be spending a bit more money, on younger players. That's something I'm *very* behind. But it has very little bearing on the convo above about giving more chances to Esposito/etc?

 

[Adriano@10]

I will give you Pinamonti. I will even give you Esposito even though his time was limited. But Carboni? Sorry but no. We gave Carboni 20 minutes in 5 games. Threw him in the dying minutes of games we were trailing. That's not giving a chance. That was desperation because Inzaghi didn't know what else to try.

And winning business is a weak argument when you have City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG giving playing time to youngsters. Serious playing time. Not garbage minutes.

So you would have kept carboni around for the sake of keeping him around? Like why are you guys assuming there was no talk with Inzaghi on wether or not he should stay? Also are you not the same guys who would bitch if we keep him and inzaghi does not play him?
Are you not overestimating the amount of home grown players these teams play?

We wasted tons of resource on expensive trash with zero resale value. See what Correa and Arnau are causing? The flops last year were Sanchez Cuadrado and Klaassen. The best one? Bisseck. You see the pattern.

I am glad that Oaktree thinks differently and starts buying serious gems from all over the world. Let's see next seasons if we are losing trophies, like you fear. Or we still win and gaining profits in the meantime, from those 2005-2006 newbies. Exactly how Juve is funding their whole Mercato.

Funny cause arna is one of the more talented players we had at the club in the last 15 years we sent him away he s now much better than he was when he was u20 and yet your bitching about his perfomances i wonder how you would have reacted had we keep him around and given him more playing time....
What about dzeko miki devrijl Acerbi? old flops who just steal playing time from the young ones?
Common now

 

[PHM1605]

Dont think anyone can dispute Cuadradro/Klasson/Correa/Arnau were a waste of time and space, I said as much several times before we signed most of them.

But whats your alternative? We go with Satriano, Zanotti, Esposito and Agoume instead?

We just dont really have the talent in our youth.


In terms of the Oaktree buying stategy, I'm 100% happy for us to be spending a bit more money, on younger players. That's something I'm *very* behind. But it has very little bearing on the convo above about giving more chances to Esposito/etc?

Even in that case I am 100% sure we would still have won the Scudetto. And we would have seen Inter much stronger already with Gudmunsson. Money from where? 20-30m salary and transfer fee saving between the two groups.

Funny cause arna is one of the more talented players we had at the club in the last 15 years we sent him away he s now much better than he was when he was u20 and yet your bitching about his perfomances i wonder how you would have reacted had we keep him around and given him more playing time....
What about dzeko miki devrijl Acerbi? old flops who just steal playing time from the young ones?
Common now

De Vrij and Mikhy were not old by the time we got them. And I am not talking about not buying experience. I am talking about kids investment isn't enough.
PS: Arna talented wtf bro (?!?) He can't even tie the boots of a Serie B Pinamonti. Much better in collecting all the stupid cash from us or what??

 

[CafeCordoba]

I will give you Pinamonti. I will even give you Esposito even though his time was limited. But Carboni? Sorry but no. We gave Carboni 20 minutes in 5 games. Threw him in the dying minutes of games we were trailing. That's not giving a chance. That was desperation because Inzaghi didn't know what else to try.

And winning business is a weak argument when you have City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG giving playing time to youngsters. Serious playing time. Not garbage minutes.

Point was he was in the squad. Minutes in competitive matches does not equal "giving a chance". Giving a chance means you're part of the team. Most of the work done by the team happens outside of official matches, ie. trainings. Being part of the first team squad alone is already a big thing (at Inter level) and we gave that chance to Carboni (though I'm not sure how much he really trained or was he mostly with the Primavera squad).

And what @.h. mentioned about Carboni's position, he doesn't simply fit to this team and didn't fit earlier yet he was still training with it.

Winning is a great argument when we consider we don't have reserve team like probably all those mentioned clubs have / or they are filthy rich so they can buy their young players for money we definitely cannot afford to.

And was a single Italian team mentioned in this? No. And that's because Italian game is harder for younger players. It is more tactical, coaches require more tactical awareness, more rigorous playing, following tactics, how to move, where to position, all that shit. Players who have more experience generally fare better in these aspects of the game even if they are not as skilled as some hot shot youngster, who makes more mistakes. And all the teams defend well and are well organized. That's why kids need to be very, very good, very talented to make up for some deficiencies they have in their tactical game which they surely have because they do not have the experience (experience means player has faced certain situations enough in his career so that he's able to understand how to play those situations).

I fail to understand what exactly people expect Inter to do. We cannot be like those clubs mentioned (money AND different league culture). Reserve team / B-team is a good start, and it might generate a bit more players we can then use in our first team but IMO it won't differ that much from what we're seeing now. Now we loan them and then use them if we see them good enough. Same applies then except we control them when they play in Serie C level. We still need to loan them (like Juve have done) when they take steps forward in development.

 

[.h.]

And was a single Italian team mentioned in this? No. And that's because Italian game is harder for younger players. It is more tactical, coaches require more tactical awareness, more rigorous playing, following tactics, how to move, where to position, all that shit. Players who have more experience generally fare better in these aspects of the game even if they are not as skilled as some hot shot youngster, who makes more mistakes. And all the teams defend well and are well organized. That's why kids need to be very, very good, very talented to make up for some deficiencies they have in their tactical game which they surely have because they do not have the experience (experience means player has faced certain situations enough in his career so that he's able to understand how to play those situations).

You know when a young player plays really, really well and everyones like 'wow, he played like a player with a lot more maturity/experience'? Thats what they're referring to.

 

[Adriano@10]

De Vrij and Mikhy were not old by the time we got them. And I am not talking about not buying experience. I am talking about kids investment isn't enough.
PS: Arna talented wtf bro (?!?) He can't even tie the boots of a Serie B Pinamonti. Much better in collecting all the stupid cash from us or what??

I ll give you devrij but miki was 30+

And yes arna was talented just cause you cant see it does not make it untrue. Fact is back then arna was highly rated fact is since arna joined and left us again other than coutinho and kova none of our youths had better careers then him.
Fact is also arna now is a better player than arna u20 and you still are bitching about him not being good emough ao how are our other primaver kida good enough? And no none of them is better than arna atm....

 

[CafeCordoba]

You know when a young player plays really, really well and everyones like 'wow, he played like a player with a lot more maturity/experience'? Thats what they're referring to.

Yes and those players will play, even at Inter.

 

[PHM1605]

I ll give you devrij but miki was 30+

And yes arna was talented just cause you cant see it does not make it untrue. Fact is back then arna was highly rated fact is since arna joined and left us again other than coutinho and kova none of our youths had better careers then him.
Fact is also arna now is a better player than arna u20 and you still are bitching about him not being good emough ao how are our other primaver kida good enough? And no none of them is better than arna atm....

Pinamonti at 25 has had 40 Serie A goals. Arna at 25 had not even half from Bundesliga and Premier League. And he is a Serie B player, that's the fact. Don't even let me mention Balo.

Even though Pinamonti isn't good enough for Inter, he brought us 20m, a steal. So I don't bitch shit had we given any kids more minutes. More minutes more money. As for Arna, ofc I wouldn't have been stupid cheering for developing a kid for Twente lol. They owned him, not Inter.

 

[.h.]

no one contests arnautovic is a bit shite, but he also was a bit late in his blossoming - another way to look at it is total goals scored, because yknow, pinamonti has only played Serie A whereas Arnautovic also played in the Eredivisie... Their strike rates aged 25 is v similar - Pina 0.236 goals per game, Arnautovic 0.224 goals per game


also, i guess the other point - you agree Pinamonti isnt good enough for Inter. He's probably the best striker we've produced since Balotelli? If he's not good enough for Inter, what chance do our current primavera kids have? The best in 15 years doesnt cut the mustard..

 

[Il Drago]

why do we make it sound like carboni is written off? he's out on loan, which he'll almost inevitably come back from. he plays a position that doesnt obviously fit our formation, yet we've decided to keep him for time being, isnt that a testimony of investment into him, rather than discarding him?


Who in Liverpool is home grown? TAA and Curtis Jones? Bayern? Its just Thomas Muller and Musiala (if that counts, I think it probably does but one to discuss), Aleksander Pvalovic as well but I have no fucking ide awho he is or if he's any good

City have a couple of kids on the periphery (McAtee, Rico Lewis), but isnt Phil Foden the main one that has broken through from their academy? or even only one?

At Real, the only people who've made it from the youth teams (does Valverede count? Not sure) is like Nacho, Dani Carvajal (who went out, really, on loan to Bayer for a season), Lucas Vazquez (again, had a development loan + a lot of B team experience), Fran Garcia (development loan + sale)


I think people are tinted by the Barca light

or if your point is about giving playing time to youth, in general, irrespective of where they've come from.. the big difference is for Inter, an expensive youth player is 5-10mil euros, and quality is pretty fuckied mixed. For Barca, PSG, Real, etc, they'll spend 10-60mil on a youth player.

Point was you can fight for trophies while giving playing time to youngsters and develop them. One doesn't exclude the other. Same way we did with Bisseck. There's room for youngsters even at clubs fighting for trophies.

So you would have kept carboni around for the sake of keeping him around? Like why are you guys assuming there was no talk with Inzaghi on wether or not he should stay? Also are you not the same guys who would bitch if we keep him and inzaghi does not play him?
Are you not overestimating the amount of home grown players these teams play?

I didn't bitch (i don't like the term, i just express an opinion) about not keeping Carboni. In fact i argued we should send him away since Inzaghi obviously didn't intend to play him.

I don't think management have much of a choice when Inzaghi sees Carboni as a bad fit for his system. Keeping him at Inter only for Inzaghi to use him as a last resort would be bad both for his market value and kid's development. And honesly i don't believe Carboni is ever gonna play for Inter. Even if he has a top season at Marseille it's doubtful Inzaghi is gonna change his mind about his position.

I just expressed my disagreement with Cafe's claim we gave a chance to Carboni. I don't think we did. For whatever reasons.

I don't understand the point i overestimated amount of youth they play as i didn't mention any number of youngsters. No one argues half of their squads are consisted of academy players. But whenever they see a good talent they give him a real chance.

TAA has been a starter for years, Curtis Jones has been getting serious playing time in the last 3 years and he got over 1k minutes at Liverpool last year, Bajetic got over 500 minutes and he would have got more if he hadn't missed half a season with injury. Foden is a starter for City while Lewis got over 1000 minutes at City last season. Musiala has been getting playing time at Bayern since 16 and now he's considered one of their leaders. Stanisic got over 1000 minutes before leaving on loan. Pavlovic got lots of playing time in the second round of last season and he impressed so much that he was called up to the national team (before getting injured) and he's gonna be one of the main midfield guys for Bayern next season. PSG have had Kimpebe and Emery who have started games for them from a young age. And of course so many Barcelona kids.

 

[.h.]

Point was you can fight for trophies while giving playing time to youngsters and develop them. One doesn't exclude the other. Same way we did with Bisseck. There's room for youngsters even at clubs fighting for trophies.



I didn't bitch (i don't like the term, i just express an opinion) about not keeping Carboni. In fact i argued we should send him away since Inzaghi obviously didn't intend to play him.



I just expressed my disagreement with Cafe's claim we gave a chance to Carboni. I don't think we did. For whatever reasons.

I don't understand the point i overestimated amount of youth they play as i didn't mention any number of youngsters. No one argues half of their squads are consisted of academy players. But whenever they see a good talent they give him a real chance.

TAA has been a starter for years, Curtis Jones has been getting serious playing time in the last 3 years and he got over 1k minutes at Liverpool last year, Bajetic got over 500 minutes and he would have got more if he hadn't missed half a season with injury. Foden is a starter for City while Lewis got over 1000 minutes at City last season. Musiala has been getting playing time at Bayern since 16 and now he's considered one of their leaders. Stanisic got over 1000 minutes before leaving on loan. Pavlovic got lots of playing time in the second round of last season and he impressed so much that he was called up to the national team (before getting injured) and he's gonna be one of the main midfield guys for Bayern next season. PSG have had Kimpebe and Emery who have started games for them from a young age. And of course so many Barcelona kids.

But by your very argument, isnt that exactly what we're doing? We developed Bastoni, we're developing Bisseck, Asllani, we are probably gonna sign 1-2 more younger kids as well this window and start developing some of them too?

I think we've consistently seen - if people are good enough, then we give them a chance. We just have very few people who are good enough?

 

[Il Drago]

But by your very argument, isnt that exactly what we're doing? We developed Bastoni, we're developing Bisseck, Asllani, we are probably gonna sign 1-2 more younger kids as well this window and start developing some of them too?

I think we've consistently seen - if people are good enough, then we give them a chance. We just have very few people who are good enough?

So now we include players who had development loans and players who came from other clubs? Then the list on aforementioned clubs would become a lot longer.

I don't want to drag this further as we just disagree on this so i will simply say this. We do it but we don't do it at a sufficient rate imo. Hopefully this will change with Oaktree.