Shitty Defending

Fapuccino

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MAIN DEFENSIVE PROBLEM: SHIT 3-5-2 DEFENSIVE COVERING

Every time I get ticked off and make a mistake (or my team) I always try to see what went wrong.

I've always mentioned how we also fail to cover defense. Just got to watching game, and only needed 20-30 minutes to find the problem.

This is why

-> With back 4, you have 4 players covering 4 other players

-> With back 3/5, you have 3 players covering 5 other players

The Problem

image.jpg

Fig 1: This space in front of defence is being BADLY covered




image.jpg

Fig 2: For outside mid to cover a wingback, the gap in the middle between mids is HUGE (This job should be done by a winger not central midfielder)




image.jpg

Fig 3: Eintracht takes advantage of horizontal gap between midfielders to easily penetrate

Verdict: Space in front of defence is being badly covered/managed.




The Goals


image.png

Fig 5: First goal. Obi, outside mid, goes to cover 1/LWB. This time three central midfielders stick tight to each other instead of spreading out. In turn, gap between mid and wingback is MASSIVE and causes goal.

QH7hAn.gif

Gif 1





image.png

Fig 6: Second goal. Same problem as first goal. Outside mids, instead of sticking to each other, cover the wingbacks. MASSIVE space in the middle leads to goal.
G7v4xq.gif

Gif 2


Verdict: If central midfielders stick together, they leave gaps out wide. If they go out wide, they leave space in the middle.

It is very difficult to cover 5 defenders man per man with 3 midfielders.




Back 4

image.png

Fig 7: With back 4 the problem becomes about VERTICAL gaps (gaps between lines), rather than HORIZONTAL gaps (central gaps)

Verdict: You can still have this problem with back 4. However, the HORIZONTAL gaps in midfield are not as emphasised anymore. It is harder to PENETRATE.

Back 4 is narrower in defence. However, it is better to leave the flanks free, and concentrate your forces centrally, rather than try to mark the wide areas and leave central gaps, which are more fatal.



Appendix

t4_football_excitement.jpg

Fig A: Small German girl unable to contain her excitement at Mazzari's attacking football

image.jpg

Fig B: Visualization of the problem. The flat 5 man back line covers a lot of HORIZONTAL distance. It is difficult to cover 5 people with 3 midfielders, and in turn it leaves huge gaps. The space in front of def needs to be managed better.
 
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Devious

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This is your new theory then, SD, by fap.
 

monster09

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Every defense has problems if the team is not organised.

Best example is Netherlands, they switched from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 just weeks before World cup but they were arguably the best defensive team in the World cup. It's not just back 4 or 5, it's more to do with system and how your defense reads the game and covers the space, which is always taken care by great managers. One best example is Jose.
 

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Your analysis has a number of flaws Fapalatte...
 

Fapuccino

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For the record Im not saying to use back 4 or back 3 or whatever.

I am pointing out the specific problems in the way OUR 3-5-2 is set up.
 

Pajo

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The system is imo 70% of it. 30% is the positioning and anticipation of the defenders.

If the system is good, the players brainfarts wont count as much. If the system is good and the space is well covered, even if someone makes a mistake, there will always be someone else to cover.

For example, Ranocchia did make the bad choice to tackle the guy who had the ball for the first goal, but if there was proper coverage from the midfield, he'd never be in the situation to even make that choice. Even if the coverage from the midfield was bad, and he DID went to tackle the player, if the wingback was doing his defensive job, the winger won't even be alone out there.

The thing i always say about Conter and Juventus. Their defenders are from being the best in the league. BUT, the midfield coverage and the overall defensve system was excellent. If the midfielder wasn't at his palce, there was Bonucci. If he fucked up as he often does, there would be Barzagli to cover. There's no such system at Inter.
 

I4E

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For the record Im not saying to use back 4 or back 3 or whatever.

I am pointing out the specific problems in the way OUR 3-5-2 is set up.

I'm not disagreeing. But I'm not entirely agreeing either. I'll post later.

I feel sorry & embarrassed for Vidic. He deserves an apology froma number of players.
 

Shaun

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We defended badly yesterday, but I'm still far more concerned with our attack. I'm sure once the season starts Mazzarri will clog up the midfield with two defensive midfielders.
 

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The system is imo 70% of it. 30% is the positioning and anticipation of the defenders.

If the system is good, the players brainfarts wont count as much. If the system is good and the space is well covered, even if someone makes a mistake, there will always be someone else to cover.

For example, Ranocchia did make the bad choice to tackle the guy who had the ball for the first goal, but if there was proper coverage from the midfield, he'd never be in the situation to even make that choice. Even if the coverage from the midfield was bad, and he DID went to tackle the player, if the wingback was doing his defensive job, the winger won't even be alone out there.

The thing i always say about Conter and Juventus. Their defenders are from being the best in the league. BUT, the midfield coverage and the overall defensve system was excellent. If the midfielder wasn't at his palce, there was Bonucci. If he fucked up as he often does, there would be Barzagli to cover. There's no such system at Inter.

The midfield 'coverage' from the 1st goal is not an excuse for the inept, fuckheadness of Ranocchia's childish stupidity. Also, Nagatomo's & the midfields amateurish and disastrous inability to maintain possession (or resist pressure) is bordering on Pub league football.
 

Fapuccino

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The system is imo 70% of it. 30% is the positioning and anticipation of the defenders.

If the system is good, the players brainfarts wont count as much. If the system is good and the space is well covered, even if someone makes a mistake, there will always be someone else to cover.

For example, Ranocchia did make the bad choice to tackle the guy who had the ball for the first goal, but if there was proper coverage from the midfield, he'd never be in the situation to even make that choice. Even if the coverage from the midfield was bad, and he DID went to tackle the player, if the wingback was doing his defensive job, the winger won't even be alone out there.

The thing i always say about Conter and Juventus. Their defenders are from being the best in the league. BUT, the midfield coverage and the overall defensve system was excellent. If the midfielder wasn't at his palce, there was Bonucci. If he fucked up as he often does, there would be Barzagli to cover. There's no such system at Inter.

The coverage is imo the main problem, and to me it became clear against Valencia. When you concede long range goal after long range goal, it has to be midfield coverage problem.

Like monster said, Mou was an expert at covering. I love going back to watch those games against Barcelona. It's amazing how well we covered back then, and the way we managed the space.

P.S. I4E i agree wih you that ranocchias brainfart had a lot to do with it, but as pajo said goal could easily been prevented with a safety net. When a fullback goes forward the outter mid is supposed to come back and fill in, especially when marking late midfield runs.
 

Pajo

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The midfield 'coverage' from the 1st goal is not an excuse for the inept, fuckheadness of Ranocchia's childish stupidity. Also, Nagatomo's & the midfields amateurish and disastrous inability to maintain possession (or resist pressure) is bordering on Pub league football.

Some defended Rano - i didn't. It was poor choice to go for the tackle and leave the man he already marked alone. But imo, bigger problem was the bad coverage. Well, it wasn't bad, it was non existent :lol:
 

Aliano

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I think the problem is that most of these players are used to the 4-man defense since the start of their career or in their former clubs and It's hard for them to adapt to 3-man defensive line.
 

Fitzy

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Missed the game and from the comments in here I'm glad I did.
 

Pajo

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I think the problem is that most of these players are used to the 4-man defense since the start of their career or in their former clubs and It's hard for them to adapt to 3-man defensive line.

Half of them play in this formation for 2 years. So no, it's not adaptation problem.
 

Inter7

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someone has to help me understand why its a bad decision to close the ball?

So lets say he doesnt close the ball the guy runs straight at them and then releases the ball out wide and its the same danger at least he gave himself the chance to stop the goal he had to mark 2 players you always close the most dangerous one which at this point was the guy with the ball he had to play it perfectly or else vidic would get the ball 9 out of 10 times that would not have been a goal. the ball would have been misplaced enough for vidic to get the ball. I am not a professional coach but IMO it was the right play just had to win the ball and he didnt.
 

Fapuccino

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someone has to help me understand why its a bad decision to close the ball?

So lets say he doesnt close the ball the guy runs straight at them and then releases the ball out wide and its the same danger at least he gave himself the chance to stop the goal he had to mark 2 players you always close the most dangerous one which at this point was the guy with the ball he had to play it perfectly or else vidic would get the ball 9 out of 10 times that would not have been a goal. the ball would have been misplaced enough for vidic to get the ball. I am not a professional coach but IMO it was the right play just had to win the ball and he didnt.

In soccer you're supposed to set up your team so that when one defender tackles/steps out and misses, another person is supposed to cover for him. Rano fucked up, and ideally Vidic would have covered but he was too far. This would have never happened however if we learned to properly FILTER the balls with midfield before they get to defence. It was very disorganized; people were too close to one side, and didn't manage the space properly.

I don't want to judge Mazzari's job of organizing the defence, but his job of COVERING/FILTERING that defence has generally been very very bad imo. (Not just these goals)
 

Inter7

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In soccer you're supposed to set up your team so that when one defender tackles/steps out and misses, another person is supposed to cover for him. Rano fucked up, and ideally Vidic would have covered but he was too far. This would have never happened however if we learned to properly FILTER the balls with midfield before they get to defence. It was very disorganized; people were too close to one side, and didn't manage the space properly.

I don't want to judge Mazzari's job of organizing the defence, but his job of COVERING/FILTERING that defence has generally been very very bad imo. (Not just these goals)

So you agree him closing the guy was not the "fucking up" part but missing the tackle was.
 

Fapuccino

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So you agree him closing the guy was not the "fucking up" part but missing the tackle was.

It really depends. Even if he closed him down it could have been a goal. Depends on how he closed him down as well. He should have just jockeyed. The goal was an accumulation of many different things not just the tackle:

1) Jonathan distance between CBs was too great

2) Midfield was jerked to the side and didn't cover gap in 1)

3) Defence was jerked to the side and not spread more evenly, leaving central gaps.

4) Vidic not being fast enough to cover

5) Rano missing tackle

I can't say what Rano SHOULD have done, but his fuck up was 1/5th the problem imo. When defending there needs to be room for brainfarts, so that when one defender has a brainfart it doesnt automatically = goal.

Anyway, as I4E suggested the first goal wasn't JUST a covering problem, however it played a big part. This article was more aimed at the entire time we played 3-5-2, rather than just the goals.
 

thatdude

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Rano closing the ball in that situation was the wrong decision. He should have dropped and "killed space". That way you either force the player to take a low percentage shot from long range or you delay until he has to make a decision without over committing one or the other. Also it would potentially allow a teammate to recover.

However, again the main problem there wasn't Ranocchia. It's the space between Jonathan and Ranocchia, and the lack of tracking from the midfield. We had actually done well previously, but we got caught up in the goal euphoria and got caught with our pants down. Then we mentally turned back into Inter of last season for 12 minutes.
 

Inter7

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Rano closing the ball in that situation was the wrong decision. He should have dropped and "killed space". That way you either force the player to take a low percentage shot from long range or you delay until he has to make a decision without over committing one or the other. Also it would potentially allow a teammate to recover.

However, again the main problem there wasn't Ranocchia. It's the space between Jonathan and Ranocchia, and the lack of tracking from the midfield. We had actually done well previously, but we got caught up in the goal euphoria and got caught with our pants down. Then we mentally turned back into Inter of last season for 12 minutes.

I see what your saying but closing the ball made the guy play a low percentage pass down the center if you look at the gif vidic was so close the ball he just played the perfect pass. Either way a lot of people responsible for that goal I agree.
 
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