The Suning Commerce Group

[Dave54]

You have no idea what you are even talking about.

We do not care about Zhang and him losing the team for nothing. We care about Inter and we acknowledge that Zhangs have been providing for Inter for basically each year they've been owners of Inter. Hundreds of millions in total.

ok. You are the only one with ideas.

 

[.h.]

ok. You are the only one with ideas.

The point is this isn't about ideas it's just simple facts. No interpretation needed

 

[Nero Indigo]

The only thing I couldn’t stomach was the uncertainty. Like some dark cloud hovering around whenever anything was achieved. They’re obviously the best owners since MM, and I don’t know what the future holds. I hope we find someone enamoured with this club and its history, enough to give them their full support. Sugar daddy fan please lol

 

[Pimpin]

Its not about supporting Zhang. Its about clearing up some of the really daft misconceptions people have on here.

The number of people who thought 'Oaktree loan interest is on Inter's books' probably approaches 90%.
The number of people who think 'sugar daddy will solve our problems' is probably >50%.
The number of people who are desperate for an owner to 'invest' in this club is probably >75%, not realising we already have one who has invested probably 300-400million euros in the last few years

Some things are so easily, and objectively, disproven just by spending a *LITTLE* bit of time researching some facts.


The simple fact is that over the last 4 seasons, probably (I havent checked the number, this is just gut feeling) about 25% of our losses are from 'ownership-related costs' e.g. the bonds, loan interests, etc. The rest of it is because of the cost of our fucking team

So now we will have 30% less lossess, no ccp mercy shit show, no sponsors that will renege on commercial deals. You make things so black and white and think only you understand what iss going on.

 

[Pimpin]

The point is this isn't about ideas it's just simple facts. No interpretation needed

mr fair value is equity guy

 

[.h.]

So now we will have 30% less lossess, no ccp mercy shit show, no sponsors that will renege on commercial deals. You make things so black and white and think only you understand what iss going on.

What less losses? Our books will barely change with the ownership change... Unless hmm and here's a theme.. a sugar daddy owner injects 400m to cover the bonds!

 

[Mr-Intermilan]

can i have the pleasure of starting OAKTREE thread.

 

[Dave54]

can i have the pleasure of starting OAKTREE thread.

By all means.

 

[brehme1989]

Another thing. The bond INTER has, which is the one taken in 2022 (to refinance the previous bond), worth 415m. Now the capital is bit less than 400m AFAIK (so we've paid back small junk of it). That's due in 2027, but I'm told when Oaktree sells Inter, that bond needs to be repaid. Don't know who's gonna do that, but if it's not the club (ie. we don't sell players worth 400m to finance the payment), it's going to be good for Inter since that bond requires Inter to pay around 30m interest payments every year.

I wonder why would a bond that's tied to a limited company would be affected by a change of share ownership...

Maybe said bond is somehow connected to the major shareholders in some way...?
Don't recall any corporate bond that behaves this way and I've been trading those for years. The whole idea of a corporate bond is that it's completely disconnected from ownership... or is it in this case?

 

[pier]

Sure, that's fine, but thats different to what we were discussing.

You wanted a "normal owner", not "a sugar daddy", but then you want someone better than Zhang. Reality is, Zhang is a sugar daddy - he throws a lot of cash every year into the club, which means we dont need to sell players. I'd say a normal owner is someone who isnt investing heavily in the club every season - so if that happened at Inter, we'd be selling even more ever summer for plusvalenza to cover losses, rather than d2e

I think most people on this forum think that Inter is a club almost in the black, and a sugar daddy will splash the cash that makes us have happy fun times.

In reality, we're a club heavily in the red, a sugar daddy keeps us from going bankrupt, and we get a little bit of happy fun times


What everyone is really asking for, which they dont realise, is that they want a *massive* sugar daddy. I'd love to know what capital injections are per year for big clubs, but I bet we're probably in the top 5 or 10 across football in terms of average capital injections in the last 5 years. Bear in mind all of our COVID losses were through capital injections, etc. Over 4 year basis you're probably looking at an average of 100m a season of capital injections - off hand Juve took a 200m capital injection recently, and Man Utd took a 200m capital injection (one off) as part of their recent minority sale

How much did Zhang spend for Inter? Figures of Chinese Management​

But how much did the Zhang family spend in its nearly eight years of management? From an economic point of view, Suning’s investments have reached almost 900 million euros in recent years. After the acquisition of the company’s shares for over 92 million by Erick Thohir and the initial 142 million capital increase, Suning then continued the financing of the Nerazzurri club through several member loans: in detail, 217 million in 2016/17 and another 119 million in 2017/18 for a total of 336 million euros.

Payments in the coffers of the club that have been resumed in recent seasons, thanks to the loan guaranteed by the Californian fund Oaktree to the Zhang: in detail, of the 275 million euros of loan (then become 385 million to be repaid, including interest), 126 million were paid to Inter 126 million between the 75 million in May-June 2021 and a further 51 million in the 2022/23 season.

To these investments at the capital level, there are additional investments for the income statement of the Nerazzurri club. Altogether, so far the revenues guaranteed by sponsorships with Suning exceeded 196 million: 56 million in 2016/17, 39 million in 2017/18, 35 in 2018/19, 31.6 million in 2019/20, 21.3 million in 2020/21, 12.1 million in 2021/22 and finally just under 600 thousand euros in 2022/23.

In total, between payments, loans and revenues, Suning has paid almost 900 million euros into the coffers of Inter.

Inter, l'era Zhang verso la fine: quanto ha speso Suning dal 2016

Presidente dal 2018 (mentre il padre Zhang Jindong ha acquistato il club nel 2016), Zhang dovrà dire addio al club nerazzurro, pronto a passare nelle mani di Oaktree.

www.calcioefinanza.it

 

[.h.]

so basically

inter fans
>We dont want a sugar daddy

also inter fans
>900m in 9 seasons isnt enough



great post, thank you. I've never sat down to work it out, but its higher than i expected, and likely some figures to be added from this season too

 

[Adriano@10]

I wonder why would a bond that's tied to a limited company would be affected by a change of share ownership...

Maybe said bond is somehow connected to the major shareholders in some way...?
Don't recall any corporate bond that behaves this way and I've been trading those for years. The whole idea of a corporate bond is that it's completely disconnected from ownership... or is it in this case?

Or and hear me out here the media is way fucken off....
Inter issued these bonds this is just another case of italian sports journos knowing nothing and mingeling all debt together...
The money we re owing to suning will be wiped out in case of ownership change but thats it.

Also if thats not the casae this would also be the first time i come across such a bond.

 

[.h.]

I wonder why would a bond that's tied to a limited company would be affected by a change of share ownership...

Maybe said bond is somehow connected to the major shareholders in some way...?
Don't recall any corporate bond that behaves this way and I've been trading those for years. The whole idea of a corporate bond is that it's completely disconnected from ownership... or is it in this case?

but even then, so what? if its another mechanism for them to raise capital, as a secured lender rather than an unsecured creditor...?

I'm sure its not uncommon for subsidary organisations of a group business to potentially raise capital via bonds - IF that is indeed the case here. Because, tbh, the only citation I've ever, ever seen of that is from you and never anywhere else - I'd like to see some actual evidence at some point


all that being said, though, im not a bond investor so a bit out of my depth. i get the motions but a lot of the real world nuance is beyond me

 

[brehme1989]

so basically

inter fans
>We dont want a sugar daddy

also inter fans
>900m in 9 seasons isnt enough



great post, thank you. I've never sat down to work it out, but its higher than i expected, and likely some figures to be added from this season too

It's not 900m to Inter though. Those numbers are so mixed up.

First of all, scrap 92m which went to Thohir's pockets.
We fall from 890 to 800 that went to the club.
Btw the initial claim was 120m for Thohir + Moratti share. Same source as this one.

The capital injection was 142m. At no other time did they inject capital directly.
Sponsorship money is 190m. That's the only money that went to the club that isn't processed as a "liability".

Then we have 500m that came in the form of loans. I don't recall what amount was eventually converted to equity, but this is an investment that went sour for them.
Sure it did help the club operate in some form, but saying this is somewhat impressive and worth of worship is delusional.


Also, you fail to point out the pattern that 80% of Suning direct or indirect funding came in their first 3 seasons. Which is why the majority feels we've been running on autopilot for 4 years now.
Also, Suning had promised that they'd inject capital worth 100m in the summer of 2023. This never came. Even the loan figure used was just 55m. So they're no sugar daddy by any means. They just made an investment and tried to protect it. They did well at first but the whole thing explodes in their hands as we speak and they lose everything, in a very incompetent manner.

On the other hand, you often criticize Moratti but please have a look at the Share Capital Increase actions under his tenure in his final few seasons and draw a comparison.

 

[.h.]

All of their loans to inter have been converted to equity iirc. On the 23 books I believe there was no outstanding shareholder loans.

also i dunno why you're aruging with me about figures in someone else's article tbh


also, your 80% in the first 3 years number is just simply not correct. In 2022-2023 and 2021-2022, they converted debt to equity of 217mil alone, whicj if you take the 900m figure at face value (which you think is too high, so infact reinforces my point), that's 24% of their total cash to Inter, in those two years alone, converted to equity. I believe there was a major injection in 20-21 for COVID, but I'm not 100% sure as I cant find the results right now


edit: ok, so, 20-21 there was another 132m converted d2e, so between 20-21, 21-22, and 22-23, that's already 349million euros converted. If you assume 900m is the correct figure, then thats 38% in 3 years alone. 900m over 9 seasons is an average of 100m a season, so infact that means in those 3 seasons, they actually invested *higher* than the average.

I've tried to find the older shareholder reports but i cant right now

 

[brehme1989]

Or and hear me out here the media is way fucken off....
Inter issued these bonds this is just another case of italian sports journos knowing nothing and mingeling all debt together...
The money we re owing to suning will be wiped out in case of ownership change but thats it.

Also if thats not the casae this would also be the first time i come across such a bond.

I've no idea where @CafeCordoba came with that but I trust he indeed read it somewhere. But the mofo reads everything there is and sometimes those filters don't work

There can be call provisions in corporate bonds but typically they're sort of bound with some kind of renewal. The principal n interest will always be paid in full, called early or not.

I just find this very fishy to be true, but the same time, since I was asking around for this bond when it was first released (not the 2022 one), I heard conflicting views. I just wanted to close my ears to the negative ones and focused on the positives. It's not something that was mentioned though.
Especially the 2022 one wouldn't have such a provision with everyone expecting Suning to fuck off soon enough due to their economic turmoil.

 

[brehme1989]

Lesson #1 in accounting. Ledger has a debit log and a credit log.
Lesson #2 in accounting. Assets = Capital + Liabilities.

Meaning no one cares if a shareholder loan is converted to equity 5 years after the case.
Conclusion: no need to go into deep accounting territory here, it's all evident even for those who don't know these things.

 

[.h.]

Lesson #1 in accounting. Ledger has a debit log and a credit log.
Lesson #2 in accounting. Assets = Capital + Liabilities.

Meaning no one cares if a shareholder loan is converted to equity 5 years after the case.
Conclusion: no need to go into deep accounting territory here, it's all evident even for those who don't know these things.

wrong. Of course you care, because it reduces your liabilities.... and thus... the P&L isnt impacted.

which brings me back to the whole frigging point of the argument 15 pages ago... Zhang capital injections are *no different* to cash injections from their bank directly. The fact that they are loans have made very little material impact on Inter.

The Oaktree impact on Inter has been basically fuck all. We spent more money on Nainggolan + Joao Mario + Sanchez golden handshakes, and that kept this club from bankruptcy.

 

[Linege]

inter, milan, juve, roma, fiorentina, bologna are all suger daddy teams

only atalanta, napoli and lazio are sober

if you want and owner who will spend our money only, then the start is to sell mr 12m net lautaro martinez


and yes, suning was a suger daddy, not as rich as psg papa but still

and usa owners are dumb and crap, its not nhl, nba and so, its not a money printing business

 

[brehme1989]

wrong. Of course you care, because it reduces your liabilities.... and thus... the P&L isnt impacted

which brings me back to the whole frigging point of the argument 15 pages ago

The Oaktree impact on Inter has been basically fuck all. We spent more money on Nainggolan + Joao Mario + Sanchez golden handshakes, and that kept this club from bankruptcy.

The whole premise of the argument was how much money Zhang injected to the club...

It's irrelevant if for accounting purposes (somewhere in lesson #56) this made sense for them and the club.

The fact is, the money came in the first three seasons. I don't care and no fan cares if the bookkeeping said something about that 5 years later.

For crying out loud, read the damn room and stop wearing a lecturer's mask.