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brehme1989

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What I don't understand is how a country like Italy can lose a brand like FC Internationale.

is Italy that poor? are their no Italian companies, funds, entities you name it who are interested in the ownership of inter? that's weird. because all the top clubs in Europe are still owned by their countries except for Milan and Inter.

and by topclubs I dont inlude psg , and Mancity.

That's actually a bad comparison.

Which top clubs are you referring to?

Liverpool is owned by US Americans.
Manchester United is owned by US Americans,
Arsenal, if you care to include them (I would not), is owned by Americans and some former Soviet guy (Uzbek or something)

Real Madrid and Barcelona are not companies, so they have no shareholders. Their structure resembles that of a trust fund rather than a company. They are also owned by the fans.

Atletico Madrid on the other hand had Chinese investors.

Bayern is owned by the fans. As almost all German clubs, so an individual or a company can only have a minority shareholding position, unless there's a special permission for this (granted only for Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig iirc)

Benfica and Porto are similarly structured to the German model, but Benfica is also listed on the stock exchange. The members still get to elect the management, as iirc they control roughly 60% of the company. Benfica is actually a big mess that deserves its own thread but let's not get there. Porto is also listed in the stock exchange, where I think 75% of the shares are owned by the fans.

By "fans", we mean a non-profit entity that has membership and they all have equal rights. That's the setup in Spain, Portugal and Germany with the football clubs, even if they have limited companies operating the football clubs in many cases. In Greece, we have this but there is a cap of 10% per "professional" sports club that is reserved for the mother entity, which is the non-profit organization. It can be more, but no less than 10% of the ownership. They barely get one seat at the board.

Milan is owned by a US fund.

Inter is owned by the Chinese.


Let's not talk about English clubs where 90% of them in the first three tiers of football are owned by foreigners.
In Italy actually it's not so bad. You have American-Italians sometimes (Roma, Fiorentina, Bologna, Venezia etc) but most of the teams are still owned by Italians or people who are Italian domiciled. Juventus, Napoli, Lazio, Sampdoria, Genoa, Torino all are owned by Italians.

The only clubs with foreign ownership with zero ties to Italy are Milan and us.

Italy actually was the first place to resist this and they all ended up in England. Abramovich had tried to buy Fiorentina (but they wouldn't return them to Serie A), he then tried to buy Parma but they refused to sell to a Russian and after failing to buy Manchester United he settled for Chelsea. Parma did not want to be associated with what they considered 'dirty money'. Ironically, both great sides of the 90s believed it'd be better to fold than end up being a Russian tycoon's plaything!
 

eduzee

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What I don't understand is how a country like Italy can lose a brand like FC Internationale.

is Italy that poor? are their no Italian companies, funds, entities you name it who are interested in the ownership of inter? that's weird. because all the top clubs in Europe are still owned by their countries except for Milan and Inter.

and by topclubs I dont inlude psg , and Mancity.
Yeah, that's kinda weird. Because we were associated with the bourgeois class back at the time while AC was more like a labour class.
 
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Matawil

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That's actually a bad comparison.

Which top clubs are you referring to?

Liverpool is owned by US Americans.
Manchester United is owned by US Americans,
Arsenal, if you care to include them (I would not), is owned by Americans and some former Soviet guy (Uzbek or something)

Real Madrid and Barcelona are not companies, so they have no shareholders. Their structure resembles that of a trust fund rather than a company. They are also owned by the fans.

Atletico Madrid on the other hand had Chinese investors.

Bayern is owned by the fans. As almost all German clubs, so an individual or a company can only have a minority shareholding position, unless there's a special permission for this (granted only for Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig iirc)

Benfica and Porto are similarly structured to the German model, but Benfica is also listed on the stock exchange. The members still get to elect the management, as iirc they control roughly 60% of the company. Benfica is actually a big mess that deserves its own thread but let's not get there. Porto is also listed in the stock exchange, where I think 75% of the shares are owned by the fans.

By "fans", we mean a non-profit entity that has membership and they all have equal rights. That's the setup in Spain, Portugal and Germany with the football clubs, even if they have limited companies operating the football clubs in many cases. In Greece, we have this but there is a cap of 10% per "professional" sports club that is reserved for the mother entity, which is the non-profit organization. It can be more, but no less than 10% of the ownership. They barely get one seat at the board.

Milan is owned by a US fund.

Inter is owned by the Chinese.


Let's not talk about English clubs where 90% of them in the first three tiers of football are owned by foreigners.
In Italy actually it's not so bad. You have American-Italians sometimes (Roma, Fiorentina, Bologna, Venezia etc) but most of the teams are still owned by Italians or people who are Italian domiciled. Juventus, Napoli, Lazio, Sampdoria, Genoa, Torino all are owned by Italians.

The only clubs with foreign ownership with zero ties to Italy are Milan and us.

Italy actually was the first place to resist this and they all ended up in England. Abramovich had tried to buy Fiorentina (but they wouldn't return them to Serie A), he then tried to buy Parma but they refused to sell to a Russian and after failing to buy Manchester United he settled for Chelsea. Parma did not want to be associated with what they considered 'dirty money'. Ironically, both great sides of the 90s believed it'd be better to fold than end up being a Russian tycoon's plaything!

I thought Man UTD is a rare case it seems not.

I was comparing to the likes of Barca, RM, and Bayern , even Juve hehe
 

Il Drago

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Would you prefer Marinakis? Perhaps he ships Agnelli on Noor Two :lol:

Honestly guys, this is the state of modern football.

Criminals, sovereign funds of dodgy economies and funds that are in it entirely for the profit. Pick one. Otherwise you get someone like De Laurentis or Lotito. There's not a wide selection of Italians who made fortunes out of tech companies and have had a dream of being like Moratti. Not even one.

No need to have friction over this honestly.

De Laurentiis has fucked things up on some occasions with his interference but i don't think it's fair to put him in the same category with Lotito. He bought the club when they were relegated in Serie C after the bankruptcy, he invested lots of money on the club and he turned them to a top 3 Serie A club for almost a decade. On the other hand, Lotito doesn't give a fuck about making Lazio competitive and he only cares about making money.
 

brehme1989

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De Laurentiis has fucked things up on some occasions with his interference but i don't think it's fair to put him in the same category with Lotito. He bought the club when they were relegated in Serie C after the bankruptcy, he invested lots of money on the club and he turned them to a top 3 Serie A club for almost a decade. On the other hand, Lotito doesn't give a fuck about making Lazio competitive and he only cares about making money.

I didn't intend to loop them together, I just mentioned the two different types of Italian owners that exist nowadays.
 

Pimpin

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reported

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also implying that US is on equal footing with these commies/shady governments, makes me want to volunteer and do a full on purge with these social media woke people.
 

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reported

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also implying that US is on equal footing with these commies/shady governments, makes me want to volunteer and do a full on purge with these social media woke people.

Yeah, cause Trump and company didn't fuck USA over for the last couple of months saying the election was this and that. Not to talk about the people storming that house :lol:

Not to talk about how they fucked so many countries in Asia.
 

ADRossi

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No more political talk will be tolerated.
 

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Yeah, cause Trump and company didn't fuck USA over for the last couple of months saying the election was this and that. Not to talk about the people storming that house :lol:

Not to talk about how they fucked so many countries in Asia.

like many people who know dick about stuff, you are overly confident on something you dont have the faintest idea about
 

cherntodd

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Sigh, as a Chinese living in the US for more than 10 years, it doesn't surprise me at all that many members here are so against CCP. Like I choose to laugh at those double standard western media reports, you can do whatever you choose with the information provided to you. In the end, I stay in the US because it has the most advanced and best environment for the work I want to do, not because I love US more than China or agree with everything it has done. It doesn't hurt to have some of that kind of spirit when thinking about the ownership of Inter.

We all agree that the most important thing is who can offer a stable and healthy financial support to Inter. Suning in its current state is obviously not an ideal choice. That being said, the potential link to PIF is an image problem because the owner held his mother in “prison” and is blamed to cut people in pieces. I don’t want Inter to be connected to someone like that, not because that person is from Saudi Arabia but what he has done. No matter Suning is completely privately owned or partially owned by the government, have you heard of anything that the main holder Zhang did/does is even remotely close to Salman?? Preferring PIF over Suning because in your mind one underlying government is better than the other, I’m sorry, it’s just ridiculous to me.

I am not optimistic about the potential BC Partners ownership either. Most likely, they will try to implement the English system in Inter again. Think about those financial officers Inter hired from England, did anyone of them make any real success? Premier league is a complete different system than Serie A. Also it is unclear if BC will start to sell players so that they can spend less money to run the club. Sadly, BC could be what we end up with and is probably the safest choice.
 

Forzanerazzurri

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Typically influenced by your media, I suggest you come down to China and visit the Country by yourself, talk to people, it's really not what you think.

LOL. What i said is exactly the opposite of what the media says.

You sound like a CCP spy.

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I see people being biased and attacking suning and CCP without solid evidence. Clearly, Suning has invested a lot in the past few years and it's the best owner since Massimo Moratti, notably one of the most dedicated owners to the club in history.

Yeah I'll attack the CCP as much as I want and will continue to do so. Bunch of genocidal thugs.

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Actually a great question.

The answer is, we cannot know. It all depends on the reasons for their involvement.

Ignoring all the politics, let's just dissect this and see what the situation can be like with a minority shareholder.

Assuming it will take place, we're talking about a 30% shareholder situation. Perhaps they want more, but we know that Suning wants to transfer that 31% or whatever it is to the guys who will bring fresh liquidity.

If this shareholder wants to complete the transaction eventually, unless there are triggers involved that make them buy out a portion of Suning's cut to eventually make them the major shareholders, then perhaps it is not to their best interest to add a Messi. It would eventually raise the valuation of their investment, meaning that on paper they'll have more (unrealized) but if they want to complete the deal, they'd have to pay more money per share.
If they just want a piece of the action, then they will want someone like Messi. Because they'd be satisfied to have an investment that has increased in value.

The issue is, how do you add the funds needed for a Messi? It's not just the fact that you're part owner makes you able to throw money there.

There are two ways of funding. And a third, indirect road is also available which is more and more common these days in football due to stupid UEFA regulation. That indirect method is through sponsorships, but those are curbed. As is the amount a shareholder may pump to the club with any other of the two methods.

So whomever comes now as a minority shareholder will add needed liquidity. How do you add money to a company?

Well, you can either loan the money, so you get an equity cut (% of the company's shares) for a fee, that goes to the selling shareholder's pocket and then provide the company with say, a 200m loan deal. So you'll be expecting that back. With interest usually. Usually this is also how an LBO (leveraged buy out) works, which is what BC Partners will most likely be going after. So loaning money to the club adds 'assets' on the balance sheet, as cash, but also adds 'liability', as you now have an extra long term debt to compensate for that.

The other way you can do this, is by issuing an increase of share capital. This is usually the most common practice performed by football club owners that want to pump extra money. What this means is that the company had let's say 10,000,000 shares, worth $1,00 each. It needs $2,000,000 right now which it cannot find from elsewhere. The owners then issue this and ask the rest of the shareholders to cover it themselves. They set the share price, but to keep it simple, let's say that they also pretend that the club's valuation has increased, so the price is also set at $1 rather than make it $0.83 plus a couple of extra decimals to keep the valuation at $10m. Usually this means that everyone will chip in their percentage. If you fail to do this, your % of equity will decrease. This is what they call dilution. So if other shareholders are diluted and someone else cover their dues, the % of equity of this person will increase.

So this gives incentive to new potential shareholders to get a piece of the pie. Company gains 'assets', the money, like before. But now what increases is the 'capital'. Assets = Liabilities + Capital. Because the company is essentially a vehicle where an investor puts in the capital and expects it to come back to him. They're both things that the company owes to outsiders.

Combinations are also possible, of course. So you could have someone get in the action by a capital increase and then grant a loan to the company they got a % of.

I'm not exactly sure what the shareholder situation is now and what exactly Suning is after. They wanted to replace Lionrock apparently, but I'm not exactly sure how to uncomplicate things in writing if that's the situation as these rae minority shares exchanging hands in a few words. Lionrock also partly owned Suning Sports, so we can understand that this whole situation becomes even messier.

Lionrock Capital has been with us as a minority shareholder for some time but we do not really know nor hear about any of their actions. They evidently cannot add funds to the company, Suning also has not allowed them to extend their ownership as we have not heard about a sale of shares nor of any share capital increase.

Now, is there incentive for a minority shareholder, apart from a financial perspective, to give money to a football club? Signing Messi for example would require at least an extra $200m on top of our needs. Sure, a fund may do that, get Messi on some sponsorship deals for their own purpose, flash him around, say that they co-own Inter who Messi now plays for and get their money back + interest from this whole charade. While their investment valuation increases. While it will be very hard for them to get the majority stake, assuming Suning sticks around and does the minimum required as shareholder, it will also be near impossible for them to buy back the share they just sold. The minority shareholder will be asking for far more now and it may be uneconomical for the majority shareholder to keep this going, so a new deal may be cut and the minority shareholder, being in a better financial position (outside of Inter) and also have a better project worked out for future cash flows at Inter, may be in a position to, yes, pay more for the remaining %, but face a majority shareholder that cannot keep up with the growth. This is highly unlikely of course in our case provided that Suning is still around and the Chinese do not call for a full divestment, but it's still possible.


Now back to the political part for a final note. I reckon that the Chinese may be more lenient with owning Inter if it bridges them with a sovereign Arab fund. It opens the doors for multiple transactions, but we will now face unprecedented geopolitical risk for Inter, as we will be relying on International Relations between two regions that do not have a direct interest in Italy and if their relationship becomes sour, Inter will be the one to suffer. That's a political risk that Inter will be facing if this goes on. Usually money wins, but when even one of the parties is too ideological, you cannot have a working relationship. Best case scenario would be that one of the two parties 'wins' the Inter battle if it ever goes there. Facing scrutiny by Italy in case they don't like either the Chinese or the Arabs is not something of concern for Inter, we already face enough scrutiny for being Interisti :lol:

Thank you. One of the things I wasn't understanding was what the benefit of this minority position would be to the club. I figured it would be to Sunings benefit only. The last part is interesting. We are obviously a vessel for other priorities.
 

RichDAS

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Yeah, actually a lot of people here do support the CCP, and turn a blind eye to the more recent controversial events. Many support the takeover of Hong Kong, majority believe they should take Taiwan, majority believe the South China Sea belongs to them, and majority believe it is in their country's right to influence the world as responsibility of a super power. Go on a social media platform such as Weibo to check for yourself. An attack on their government is seen as an attack on themselves, that is just their thought process.
 

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like many people who know dick about stuff, you are overly confident on something you dont have the faintest idea about

:lol:

man-cover-his-eyes-with-his-hands-stock-photos_csp72671130.jpg
 

ADRossi

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Infractions have been handed out. Come on guys.
 

Sqnalkel

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Can we get a non mass murderer non communist owner please, pretty please

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Also I hate Suning but comparing Suning to the Saudi regime ? Jesus man


I'm sad to say there's no much choice, even something like Disney would horrible from a ethical point of view.



Yup people are seriously comparing Chinese electronics retailer to the Saudi sovereign fund backed by the guy who ordered to cut a journalist into pieces. Jesus fucking Christ


Yes, the saint "journalist" Khashoggi that worked for that beacon of truth "journal" The Washington Post that absolutely doesn't work with the CIA owned by the absolutely impecable and irreprochable gentleman Jeff Bezos, that "journalist" whose assassination by the Saudis was reported by those other super honest "journalists" that never ever lie.

Anyways there's a lot of "journalists" in the Rube payroll that having Saudis as owners would at least serve as a deterrent. And just imagine of the Rube's referees that would at least be a little intimidated by our ownership.



Now that I think about it, I'm completely in favor of the Saudis buying Inter. It would take someone like them to be able to combat the Agnelli mafia.
 

Broseph Stalin

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I'm sad to say there's no much choice, even something like Disney would horrible from a ethical point of view.




Yes, the saint "journalist" Khashoggi that worked for that beacon of truth "journal" The Washington Post that absolutely doesn't work with the CIA owned by the absolutely impecable and irreprochable gentleman Jeff Bezos, that "journalist" whose assassination by the Saudis was reported by those other super honest "journalists" that never ever lie.

Anyways there's a lot of "journalists" in the Rube payroll that having Saudis as owners would at least serve as a deterrent. And just imagine of the Rube's referees that would at least be a little intimidated by our ownership.



Now that I think about it, I'm completely in favor of the Saudis buying Inter. It would take someone like them to be able to combat the Agnelli mafia.

You’re delusional as fuck dude. I can’t possibly argue with an individual who can justify murder of a person. And I’m quite scared that people like you exist, you’re too far down the rabbit hole
 

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You’re delusional as fuck dude. I can’t possibly argue with an individual who can justify murder of a person. And I’m quite scared that people like you exist, you’re too far down the rabbit hole

That's the difference. We don't know if our Chinese owners are involved in illegal activities or not. They may be, they may be not. But in the case of Saudis we know. We know they're involved in Khashoggi's murder and they have funded islamic extremism. You may be ok with it but i am not.

I never said i am ok with anything anymore than he tried to justify the murder of a person.

I did reply to him sarcastically but people like you and him seem to like twist peoples posts to fit ur narrative.
 

Il Drago

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I never said i am ok with anything anymore than he tried to justify the murder of a person.

I did reply to him sarcastically but people like you and him seem to like twist peoples posts to fit ur narrative.

I didn't twist any words and i certainly don't have a narrative. This is what you said:

Some Interesting posts here

I will say this, at the end of the day soccer is a sport and its a business so whoever owns the club shouldn't play a part if u have been following the club for a long time or if watching soccer is a passion hobby etc. None of us know the inner workings of any government or corporation until hard evidence comes out and even so not EVERYONE is involved in said matter. Ur not knowingly supporting anything malicious as u are not part of it.

These posts are trying to paint a better picture [even if they are not defending] that the current ownership is better than the Saudis and one post from Cafe gave the exact reasons that would make Saudis invest in Inter and for Drago it would be a no because of rumors of state funded Terrorism, really?

At the end of the day you have FIFA, UEFA, Lega Calcio and other governing bodies that should legally look into these matters and last i checked the United Nations and the ICC look into criminal activity done by states. You can get a private company that buys Inter and look like saints but they also run a human trafficking operation for all we know.

Makes me think Moratti should have taken Inter Public.

Correct me if i am wrong but you sound ok with having Saudis sovereign fund as our owners. And that's exactly what i said. Next time be more careful before bashing others.
 

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I didn't twist any words and i certainly don't have a narrative. This is what you said:



Correct me if i am wrong but you sound ok with having Saudis sovereign fund as our owners. And that's exactly what i said. Next time be more careful before bashing others.

Never said that either, and thats not what you said, and ill bash you if ur post is garbage and idiotic regardless
 
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