Where are all the Legendary defenders?

bandiera

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Im not disagreeing with that, I was just responding to you saying those are the only 2 teams that churn out talent in France. I never said France is better than Italy only because of reserves, although reserves are a huge part of their youth.

i was exaggerating to illuminate my point bro. but you still ignored what i said. its negligent to talk about reserves and france when you dont understand or even know the other reasons.

i dunno, how can say there are other reasons if you dont know what they are? its like saying "democracy is good b/c it improves economic relations with other countries, though that's only one reason out of many, though i dont know the others" wtf?

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homie, countries are different. culture is different. history is different. federation is different. status quo is different.

so when you say "i read in the guardian or wherever that X was done in Y and it helped, therefore X can be done in Z and it will help", it's negligent and frankly uninformed.
 

Fapuccino

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no, you implied that france was part of the roman empire, and the roman empire is now italy, therefore = logic. wth are you going on about dude?

the point is italy's youth system is broken, and reserves are a huge part why, even though not the only part. the other parts are the other youth sectors, what's there to know. like sacchi, capello, have said, a lot of players with good potential are being filtered out because of increasing focus on tactics. while in germany there is a clear focus on the individual AND tactics.
 

bandiera

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no, you implied that france was part of the roman empire, and the roman empire is now italy, therefore = logic. wth are you going on about dude?

wat? all i said was reserves arent the only reason and hardly the most important one, and countries are different...

the point is italy's youth system is broken, and reserves are a huge part why, even though not the only part. the other parts are the other youth sectors, what's there to know. like sacchi, capello, have said, a lot of players with good potential are being filtered out because of increasing focus on tactics. while in germany there is a clear focus on the individual AND tactics.

dude, because what im saying is for some reason not being understood, ill be simpler. you're being an armchair expert. stop regurgitating shit youve read and assume its the same everywhere.
 

Fapuccino

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Ok here's another armchair expert, Arigo Sacchi, on Italian youth system

"They tell the kids to hoof the ball so as not to run any risks or that they should all stay behind the ball so they don't concede any goals. Nothing could be more wrong in youth football." "

"When are we going to teach them to play, to take risks, to finish moves where all the team play a part? We have to take back the abc of technique, create a solid framework of basics. Then, through the play, you'll see that the results will come. Instead they want to win everything instantly. Too often a manager isn't chosen or judged because of his intelligence or his ability to teach but for the honours won. A disaster."


stop regurgitating shit youve read and assume its the same everywhere.

I'm sorry. I realize football in Italy is played with oranges instead of plastic balls. Different cultures and all. Completely incomparable.

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I dont even understand what you're arguing...We seem to agree on 99% of things. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing by going off on wild tangents.
 

bandiera

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fap, i dont know what the fuck youre trying to say. i understand your original point. then your follow up is, arrigo sacchi said it, therefore its correct. :lol: well sacchi also said gerrard isn't a great player.

my point is you're acting like you're an expert. then you give that sacchi quote to say youre saying the same things as a football genius just to pump out your chest or some shit? you didnt even give any new evidence.

and way to inflate my argument to absurd standards. so if i say italy is different than germany, im saying they play football with oranges? :lol: :lol:

and i was never the one replying to you. you were replying to my posts. although i agree with you. this is what happens when the two sides of the debate aren't defined well enough.

im done. wasted enough of my time already.
 

Fapuccino

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bandiera you know very well you're bullshitting just for the sake of it.

you agree with my point, leave it at that.
 

bandiera

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bandiera you know very well you're bullshitting just for the sake of it.

you agree with my point, leave it at that.

yeah, im bullshitting when im saying you're acting like an armchair expert.

i agree with a lot of your points here, which are pretty straightforward, but i dont agree with your solutions or your confidence in your solutions. you shouldnt act like you know everything about youth development when you dont.

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well this got off topic :yao:
 

J..

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If I remember correctly did the German clubs also sign under an agreement which said that they had to have focus on developing German football talents way more than what they did before. Atalanta and Sassuolo are the two only Italian Serie A clubs that I consider been loyal in this way at the moment which sadly proves that there aren't any topclass Italian talents out there at the moment.

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The comment about only two French clubs are developing talents is just plain stupidity, sorry.

Segunda clubs like Metz and Lens are well known for having well etablished academies despite the size of the clubs. Not to forget mentioning PSG, Lyon and Etienne. Rennes, Bastia and Marseille aren't bad either. In general have the French been doing a great job with all this. Their main 'problem' is the amount of talent that ends up playing for different african national teams in the end instead of the French.
 

bandiera

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i was exaggerating to illuminate my point bro

it was stupid though. i wanted to say quality doesn't come down to the reserve squads, but the youth systems themselves. later on i agreed i had been too hasty to exaggerate.

three ligue 1 clubs were in the top five european clubs giving the most first team oppurtunities to academy graduates:

1. Barcelona (9)
2. Athletic Bilbao (8)
3. Stade Rennais, Toulouse FC (6)
5. AS Saint-Etienne (5)

the league quality is lower, theres a different culture, clubs have long long history of youth development (metz, lens, rennais, sochaux, st etienne, le havre, lyonnais, auxere, nantes, monaco etc), there are national training centres with some of the best facilities/scouting in the world (clairefontaine etc), the federation is different (youth natiaonl teams etc)...

in fact the only league i watch regularly other than serie a (inter) is ligue 1 (i watch olympique lyonnais on the side).

carry on, nothing to see here... rereading my replies, it's just bandiera being an idiot :yao:
 
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Wings

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It's not misleading at all. There is a lot of rubbish-to-average defenders in Serie A that are foreigners. These players are taking up spots in place of the Italians and pushing them into lower clubs or Serie B. It is ridiculous to think that Italy doesn't have players (youth) that could be groomed & developed into very good defenders.

I'm not suggesting that the problem is just with defenders either, Italy has issues across the whole field. The infatuation with foreigners is killing Italy and Italian players. The alarming problem is the poor quality of foreigners.

Partly. The availability of foreigners certainly doesn't incentivize domestic development. But I think the bigger problem is that these clubs aren't good enough at producing talent, considering the failure of Italians who have gone abroad.
 

I4E

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Partly. The availability of foreigners certainly doesn't incentivize domestic development. But I think the bigger problem is that these clubs aren't good enough at producing talent, considering the failure of Italians who have gone abroad.

That's exactly why I said this: "It is ridiculous to think that Italy doesn't have players (youth) that could be groomed & developed into very good defenders...". It's Italy's system, not the untapped or wasted talent sitting idle. They've got the players, they've lost the ability to turn them into champions/winners/good-great players.

Prior to the foreigner flood gates opening, Italian clubs did produce a great number of talented Italian players. Example; the Milan sides that conquered everything in the 90's was made up with 90%-95% of home grown Italian talent. Juventus also had a very solid, large squad percentage of Italians (and often sucked the Italian talent that was produced by the other Italian clubs).

But when the foreigner flood gates did open, it became a lot more convenient (and easier) for the top Italian clubs to just buy foreign talent as opposed to producing their own. The reason being is that Italy held the economic power to do this. Though during this period, slowly other leagues transformed and reinvented themselves (England, Germany, Spain & even France) while Italy remained complacent, the economic power italy once enjoyed disappeared. Now Italy is in a position where they have to go to square one and reinvent themselves the way England, Germany etc did.

The French (from memory) put together an excellent system around about the early 90's that eventually paid off, evident with the remarkable results the national team had 5,6 or 7 years later by winning WC 98 and later Euro Cup winners.
 

Fapuccino

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An upside to having a lot of foreigners is it makes the league more marketable around the world. Serie A is neck to neck with La Liga in terms of foreign viewership maybe even better, and Bundesliga is still lagging far behind, even though Serie A has had the worst set of top teams for a while now.

Bundesliga using German youngsters is helping their finances and NT, but not doing so much for the marketability of the league, especially in the South American market.
 

Nerazzurri_Ninja

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I had high hopes for Davide Bettella, still do, hope he doesnt end up in Bilan or Juve
 
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