2011/2012 New Manager Rumors Thread

[blackmore]

As far as I know 3 men defense is used to contain a 2 strikers formation

WRONG!

The 3-3-1-3 formation changes so quickly and so significantly because there are a lot of players that can play two or even three positions in that scheme. Bielsa rarely uses pure defenders in the back line. He mostly uses defensive midfielders on that position for two reasons: (a) They are quick on covering defensive positions and (b) because they can pass the ball better through the rival attackers, and can assume advanced positions. this system changes depending on the opposition formation. If the opposition are playing with three attackers, Bielsa plays with four in the back. If they play with one attacker, there is only the need for two centre-backs. Bielsa doesn’t ever move the three attackers nor the attacking midfielder in front. They are focussed upon starting the defensive pressure at the beginning of the rivals attacK.

THIS..

 

[Batman]

Wow, what a shocking news, I really didnt expect that.. I think the nearest one to us is Bielsa currently.. I hope it will be AVB though.

 

[Wallace]

WRONG!

That's not very informative.

Can you come up with a more constructive post that explains the mechanism behind 3 men defense then?

 

[blackmore]

That's not very informative.

Can you come up with a more constructive post that explains the mechanism behind 3 men defense then?

I ALREADY DID....

Bielsa’s 3-3-1-3 is an inherently attacking formation that aims to take the game to his teams opponents, press and defend high up the pitch, and stretch the play as wide as possible when in possession. His back three and the holding midfielder are essentially the four defensive-minded players, whilst the two wing-backs surge forward whenever possible, trying to create overloads against opposition full-backs, and also venturing into more central attacking positions to provide a goal threat.

Bielsa never changes his favoured un enganche y tres punta (one playmaker and three fowards) system. The forward trio stretch the opposition defence – the wingers start from very wide positions and open up gaps that are exploited by the centre-forward. For such an unusual formation and such a specific style of play, the most surprising thing about Bielsa’s team selections is that he has always found various players who fit into the system seamlessly, especially in defence. Its not uncommon to see regular players being played out of position, nearly all the time. Bielsa is happy to chop and change between games and to deploy individuals in a variety of positions. Usually when he's playing against an opposition with 2 striker, he will change to the 4-2-3-1.

In terms of how the midfield shapes up; it is generally laid out as a diamond and is never flat, which means that the wide-of-centre players do not necessarily have to be wide midfielders or wing-backs, though some indeed are. Overall, Bielsa likes to have a mix – and so, beside the obvious presence of a holding player, it is common to see a wing-back/wide-midfielder on one side whilst a more well-rounded midfield player can take the other flank. The idea here being that the playmaking duties will not be the exclusive preserve of the No.10 lest that guy’s creativity be stifled by close marking. So the wide players can indeed push out to support the outside-forwards and of course to assist the outside centre-backs in the three-man defence when the opponent is raiding down that particular flank. Another result of having that diamond is that the wide midfielders do not have to overlap the wingers, but instead can surge diagonally through the middle to latch on to second balls; so in this sense they are like box-to-box midifelders.

The 3-3-1-3 formation changes so quickly and so significantly because there are a lot of players that can play two or even three positions in that scheme. Bielsa rarely uses pure defenders in the back line. He mostly uses defensive midfielders on that position for two reasons: (a) They are quick on covering defensive positions and (b) because they can pass the ball better through the rival attackers, and can assume advanced positions. this system changes depending on the opposition formation. If the opposition are playing with three attackers, Bielsa plays with four in the back. If they play with one attacker, there is only the need for two centre-backs. Bielsa doesn’t ever move the three attackers nor the attacking midfielder in front. They are focussed upon starting the defensive pressure at the beginning of the rivals attack.

I seriously dont know how the fuck he is even going to try to use that system here...seriously! With the players that we have, it just aint happening. The way our players are breaking down, i just dont see how they can play such a high-intesity formation for the whole season! Definately not one for an aging squad.

MINDFUCK!

lets take it back old school..............

ZING!

 

[Wallace]

Usually when he's playing against an opposition with 2 striker, he will change to the 4-2-3-1.

If the opposition are playing with three attackers, Bielsa plays with four in the back. If they play with one attacker, there is only the need for two centre-backs. Bielsa doesn’t ever move the three attackers nor the attacking midfielder in front. They are focussed upon starting the defensive pressure at the beginning of the rivals attack.

This article doesn't make any sense to me...

So he's saying Biesla plays 4-2-3-1 against 2 strikers, 4 defenders against 3 attackers, and 2 center backs against 1 striker.

So when does he play with 3 defenders?

 

[blackmore]

This article doesn't make any sense to me...

So he's saying Biesla plays 4-2-3-1 against 2 strikers, 4 defenders against 3 attackers, and 2 center backs against 1 striker.

So when does he play with 3 defenders?

how the fuck did u come to that conclusion? omg is this some kinda joke....where are the hidden cameras? surely one individual cannot misconstrue something thats so easy to fathom, can he?

you want me to slow it down for you a little.,..so you can grasp the whole concept....ok here it is.

basically he plays with 3 man back line if the opposition has 1 attacker. if the opposition has more then one att in their side, then bielsa will revert to playing a four man defence. against a one man attack, he plays with 2 centrebacks...the third defender being in a sweeper role.

oh lordy i hope your still in school young fella!

 

[Luka]

There are 2 problems with it

1. Samuel is very slow, hence he can't play on the side, where he has to cover lots of space for a center back.
2. Where is Cuchu?

Aside from that, looks good

 

[Maslany]

IS HE ANY GOOD FOR FUCK SAKES?!

 

[Luka]

As far as I know 3 men defense is used to contain a 2 strikers formation, with a numerical advantage over them. While 2 strikers formations were prominent in the last decade or so, 1 striker formations seemingly have been more popular nowadays with 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 (1 striker 2 wingers).

So it doesn't really make sense to stick to 3 men defense all the time, as that would mean having a redundant defender around marking 1 striker (3 v 1), when there's already an advantage of 2 v 1 with 2 defenders.

It's not as "simple" as that. If it was, Udinese or Napoli wouldn't play with their systems against teams with 1-3 strikers, but they did, and with not bad effect I might add.

Like I've said 3 man defense systems are great, as long as you have right players for them.

 

[junior55]

Well this is news ....
I see people excited about bielsa and 3313 but i'm worried as hell . THis would be like a hurracan for the club and with club i mean all it's elements especially branca and the players .
First of all i read anyway that bielsa is a great football lover and a great football teacher but wtf , where has he been all this years . Is he frightened to train a big club or train at europe or what because i can't find an explanation of the reason that such a good coach has only trained espaniol and stayed with NT all the time. Anyway what worries me is not bielsas name (he for sure is a better manager than leo ) but how could our club fit with him and especially his tactic.
Changing a coach itself would be very bad in this period when the mercato strategies are already done , but signing a new coach who plays 3313 would be disastrous for a team with inter's type players.
We are talking about a team who's board (branca & co) have months looking for new central midfielders that now has not only stop looking(except for the dm spot) for them but try finding a place for those who we currently have like motta , mariga , dejan etc.
We are talking about a team who lacks quality full back's and that was thinking to sell maicon that now has to find 4 wingers in the market or 3 + nagatomo and except bale i don't see who can we buy that could be inter material.
We are talking about a team that thought that with muro , frog and lucio had the diffense covered that now should make the counts with the need for 6 cb's (and i wouldn't like to call materazi and cafe as good enough for 2 of this 6 spots).

But the most important matter and the most difficult in the same time is learning to play with 3 in defence which is a revolutionary thing for a team used to play with 4. It's true that the 3xxx is in fashion right now but for teams like genoa & napoli . Can you name a big team who plays with 3 defenders .
For me this is too much change. It could turn out good but changing so much is very risky in these levels .

 

[Wallace]

how the fuck did u come to that conclusion? omg is this some kinda joke....where are the hidden cameras? surely one individual cannot misconstrue something thats so easy to fathom, can he?

you want me to slow it down for you a little.,..so you can grasp the whole concept....ok here it is.

basically he playes with 3 man back line if the opposition has 1 attacker. if the opposition has more then one att in their side, then bielsa will revert to playing a four man defence. against a one man attack, he plays with 2 centrebacks...the third defender being in a sweeper role.

oh lordy i hope your still in school young fella!

No need to get all irritated, I'm just trying to learn something about 3 men defense.

It's cause I read that 3 central defenders are used to mark 2 strikers, because there's a numerical advantage in 3 v 2, simple as that. While 3 v 1 striker becomes redundant and 3 v 3 loses such advantage. I mentioned that in the last post, and I think that is logically correct.

I quoted the article you posted, and I still think it contradicted itself anyhow. Why would any one use 3 men defense to mark just 1 striker? Why would you switch to 4 men defense against 2 attackers, as that would just be a 2 v 2 situation? The logic behind switching from 3 to 4 here doesn't really make sense.

So I went and found the article which I read here: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/24/three-man-defence-in-football-soccer/

It's from Zonal Marking, which is where you got yours from.

The problem with a three-man defence is that it rarely works well against anything other than two strikers.

Which is what I think I've been saying.

OK whatever, thanks for your great help.

 

[Ed.]

Well this is news ....
I see people excited about bielsa and 3313 but i'm worried as hell . THis would be like a hurracan for the club and with club i mean all it's elements especially branca and the players .
First of all i read anyway that bielsa is a great football lover and a great football teacher but wtf , where has he been all this years . Is he frightened to train a big club or train at europe or what because i can't find an explanation of the reason that such a good coach has only trained espaniol and stayed with NT all the time. Anyway what worries me is not bielsas name (he for sure is a better manager than leo ) but how could our club fit with him and especially his tactic.

He never coached Espanyol. He is a better coach. I don't know if he is a better manager.

 

[Vindhi]

basically he playes with 3 man back line if the opposition has 1 attacker. if the opposition has more then one att in their side, then bielsa will revert to playing a four man defence. against a one man attack, he plays with 2 centrebacks...the third defender being in a sweeper role.

Not really, he plays with 3 centre backs if the opposition has 2 strikers, if they have a lone striker then he uses 2 centre backs. In doing this his sides always have a space man in defence.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/16/honduras-0-1-chile-tactics/

This analysis of the Honduras Chile match from last year shows how his side adjusts as Honduras switch from 1 to 2 strikers.

 

[KardiacKid]

I certainly don't want to sound like a broken record....but nobody will excite me other than Villa Boas.

The only way I am excited about anybody else is if we bring in Sanchez, Nasri, etc.... But right now, I'm not even optimistic that our cheap management will bring in anybody of relevance. We'll probably be stuck with Karjha, Pandev and Milito.

 

[vitomins]

only when theres 2 att in opposing teams vito...

wherever he has coached its been staple 3-3-1-3

Just because you read it on ZonalMarking, does not make it fact.


Used 4-2-1-3 Against
07/09/2007 - Switzerland: 4-4-1-1
18/11/2007 - Uruguay: 4-3-3
20/08/2008 - Turkey: 4-2-3-1
29/03/2009 - Peru: 4-2-3-1
29/05/2009 - Belgium: 4-3-3
12/08/2009 - Denmark: 4-2-3-1
05/09/2009 - Venezuela: 4-3-2-1
14/10/2009 - Ecudaor: 4-3-2-1
31/03/2010 - Venezuela: 4-3-3
09/06/2010 - New Zealand: 3-4-3


In fact this game, rated highly by ZonalMarking, shows the exact opposite approach. Bielsa used 4 backs when Honduras started with 1 striker and then when Honduras switched to 2 forwards in the second half, Bielsa switched to his favored 3-3-1-3.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/16/honduras-0-1-chile-tactics/

 

[Luka]

It's cause I read that 3 central defenders are used to mark 2 strikers, because there's a numerical advantage in 3 v 2, simple as that. While 3 v 1 striker becomes redundant and 3 v 3 loses such advantage. I mentioned that in the last post, and I think that is logically correct.

But Wallace. It's not like when you play 4-4-2 against 4-5-1, then everybody attacks but 2 central defenders, where it leaves 2vs1. Rarely teams attack with more than 4-5 players. Barca attacks with 6-7. 3 man defenses are not bad if there is just 1 striker to cover. Also you make mistake thinking side defenders are the same as center backs. They are not. Their characteristic should allow them to play good with the ball, and to have good mobile atributes. When we go to offensive stage, one or both go wide, and act as fullbacks. When there is not many people to cover, one of those can go forward and join the attack, while the wingbacks go very high up the pitch acting as wingers.

3 man defenses are really great systems, which bring advantage to ofensive side of the field, and defensive(becoming 5 man defenses) side of the field, thanks to the huge lungs of wingbacks.

 

[Ed.]

The biggest problem is actually him spending 10 years or more in the NT. He is not used to follow European football on daily basis to search and recognise which the best player will suit him. He might not know which players he wants to buy. He only knows about his Argentina and Chile.

 

[Batman]

He never coached Espanyol. He is a better coach. I don't know if he is a better manager.

He coached Espanyol for only a year (only 8 games), still not enough though to earn a european experience.

 

[Ed.]

He coached Espanyol for only a year (only 8 games), still not enough though to earn a european experience.

I wouldn't consider that as coaching.

 

[vitomins]

But Wallace. It's not like when you play 4-4-2 against 4-5-1, then everybody attacks but 2 central defenders, where it leaves 2vs1. Rarely teams attack with more than 4-5 players. Barca attacks with 6-7. 3 man defenses are not bad if there is just 1 striker to cover. Also you make mistake thinking side defenders are the same as center backs. They are not. Their characteristic should allow them to play good with the ball, and to have good mobile atributes. When we go to offensive stage, one or both go wide, and act as fullbacks. When there is not many people to cover, one of those can go forward and join the attack, while the wingbacks go very high up the pitch acting as wingers.

3 man defenses are really great systems, which bring advantage to ofensive side of the field, and defensive(becoming 5 man defenses) side of the field, thanks to the huge lungs of wingbacks.

3 man defenses are a thing of the past though...I could be forgetting something, but I can't really remember a team using a 3-back system to extreme success within the last decade.

The last one I really like was Capello's at Roma. But his was no where near as attacking as Bielsa's is...