José "The Special One" Mourinho

bandiera

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But they weren't considered underdogs!

How does that change anything that I said? Underdogs don't have the best players so they have to work harder to win.

You could say that the variation in the teams that win the European Cup is with the underdogs than the big clubs who are in contention for it every year, and big clubs don't have a stranglehold over the competition for many different reasons. You cannot say that it's more difficult to win the title with better players.

Are you saying Real didn't have the mentality of the underdogs because there's more pressure at Madrid? That doesn't make any sense. Madrid don't have the mentality of the underdogs because they're competing for the same titles every year, underdogs don't have that opportunity. It's nearly impossible to maintain a winning mentality every year so they won't be consistently at the top. Your argument is more about whether or not it's more difficult to keep a top team consistently at the top than to not be a top team and win the title.
 

Javier'sSon

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I replied to your original post before you edited it, where you mentioned Madrid as an example of if they played like the underdogs they would have won. And I say that it is because they weren't considered underdogs they couldn't play and didn't perform as was expected of them. I know there's many factors that come into play, the fitness of the players, the preparation for the matches and the work of the manager going into these crucial games but I still believe that the mental aspect gets way overlooked when in fact it is a major reason why players crumble or have lapses in judgement. The big teams - whether favorites or underdogs - usually will have most of the physical aspect of the game sorted out. The mental side, not so much.
 

bandiera

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I replied to your original post before you edited it, where you mentioned Madrid as an example of if they played like the underdogs they would have won. And I say that it is because they weren't considered underdogs they couldn't play and didn't perform as was expected of them. I know there's many factors that come into play, the fitness of the players, the preparation for the matches and the work of the manager going into these crucial matches but I still believe that the mental aspect gets way overlooked when in fact it is a major reason why players crumble or have lapses in judgement. The big teams - whether favorites or underdogs - usually will have most the physical aspect of the game sorted out, the mental, not so much.

I edited my post again btw.

at the end of the day, its wrong to generalize. it was different for different underdogs and different favorites depending on the teams involved. inter and chelsea were both underdogs when they won it. bayern won it as a favorite but it was more difficult for us to win it and easier for chelsea to wi theirs vs bayern for example. so i think its better if we're more specific, im going to talk about inter 2010 vs other teams. i dont think anyone would argue it was more difficult for barcas players to win a treble vs our players in 2010.

the reason the favorite doesnt always win it over another team is because of the nature of the moniker and the nature of cup comps. having the best players doesnt mean you'll have a balanced team (which has nearly always been a problem with real under florentino perez), and even if you have the right combination doesnt necessarily mean you will have strong enough of a mentality to be the best team (milan 2005, barca post 2011) or that you will have enough luck (juve 2003).


i think what you're saying has more to do with the argument that its more difficult to build a winning team at real than somewhere else. true, at real there are pressures that interfere with building a winning team, yes, and they can make it difficult to build a winning mentality there vs other clubs. real (and the usual favorites) are typically competing for everything every year so its difficult to consistently be as competitive as inter who only had one chance to win the title. or to have a winning mentality that doesnt fizzle out after you win trophies. with the case of real, the galactico shit made it difficult to build a balanced team. mou even got shit when he won against barca because winning without dominating an attacking game on their opponent was laughably seen as not good enough for madrid etc.

just because there are pressures though doesnt mean its easier at inter because we had our share of difficulties in building a team that won everything. we didnt have the resources to buy top players and we didnt challenge at that level before for our players not to choke. we had a lot of experienced players though and i do think it was easier for mou but that doesnt mean a team with less quality has a natural advantage over others to challenge for champions league.

most importantly, that isnt the main point of this discussion. it definitely doesnt mean that real or baras players had to give more than inter's players in 2010 to win the champions league because that isnt true. their players didnt give more than some of chelseas players like drogba, lampard, cech, or milan in 2007 for that matter.
 
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Wings

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But I'm saying the best team doesn't always win, in an attempt to explain why the favorite didnt (and often doesn't) win. It's about setting your team up for big games against particular opposition rather than consistency as with a straight league, which always finds the best team of the season (usually the favorite).

I don't think we're disagreeing. The best team on the pitch isn't always the favorite. Is all I'm saying. (I think I'm taking best team to mean the team that played better football during the match, while you're taking best team to mean the highest-quality team).
 

kameru

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Real win 10 UCL, that's what makes them Favorite year in year out.
 

Javier'sSon

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at the end of the day, its wrong to generalize. it was different for different underdogs and different favorites depending on the teams involved. inter and chelsea were both underdogs when they won it. bayern won it as a favorite but it was more difficult for us to win it and easier for chelsea to wi theirs vs bayern for example.

Yeah generalizing is pretty bad but it stands out to me so much that I feel I could! Of course there has been favorite winners and underdog winners but I'm not talking about the history of the CL/European cup, I'm talking say the start of the millennium where Media have risen so significantly that it affects the modern players like in never had before.

the reason the favorite doesnt always win it over another team is because of the nature of the moniker and the nature of cup comps. having the best players doesnt mean you'll have a balanced team (which has nearly always been a problem with real under florentino perez), and even if you have the right combination doesnt necessarily mean you will have strong enough of a mentality to be the best team (milan 2005, barca post 2011) or that you will have enough luck (juve 2003).

Are you suggesting that cup competitions have these variations because of its short format? If so then I beg to differ. Yes luck could have a bigger of an affect in a shorter period of time compared to the long season of domestic football. However, the CL have higher quality of opponents and thus the pressure is tenfold. Playing relatively strong teams 10 weeks out of 38 does not come close to playing tough oppositions in a two-legged match(es) in a knock out stage. You can't seriously say that the pressure is not extremely heavier in the latter?

i think what you're saying has more to do with the argument that its more difficult to build a winning team at real than somewhere else. true, at real there are pressures that interfere with building a winning team, yes, and they can make it difficult to build a winning mentality there vs other clubs. real (and the usual favorites) are typically competing for everything every year so its difficult to consistently be as competitive as inter who only had one chance to win the title. or to have a winning mentality that doesnt fizzle out after you win trophies. with the case of real, the galactico shit made it difficult to build a balanced team. mou even got shit when he won against barca because winning without dominating an attacking game on their opponent was laughably seen as not good enough for madrid etc.

Hmmm good point but I disagree, it does not have anything to do with building a dynasty as I believe building a consistent winning team has more to do with the structure of the club itself more so than the players/coach. All the great teams (Pep's Barca and onward, Milan's 90s team, Bayern's 70s) were carefully planned by the management of said clubs, from the style they play to the policy of the recruitment of players to who's the perfect fit to manage these players and so on.

I think my original argument has more to do with Attack vs Defense. As favorites are most frequently the attackers (aggressors) and the underdogs the defenders. Its like that in most sports too, Basketball, Boxing, Tennis and Football. The talented attacking force are almost always the favorites.

just because there are pressures though doesnt mean its easier at inter because we had our share of difficulties in building a team that won everything. we didnt have the resources to buy top players and we didnt challenge at that level before for our players not to choke. we had a lot of experienced players though and i do think it was easier for mou but that doesnt mean a team with less quality has a natural advantage over others to challenge for champions league.

You just said that it was easier for Mou and that's my whole point, as a manager it is easier (but in no way fuckin easy) to have a group of players who are considered inferior to the other team to motivate. On the other hand, having a favorite squad makes it tougher for a manager to motivate his players. And that's my point. I'm not saying that it's easier on the players. On the contrary because you could easily make the point that favorite teams have a more skilled base of players but the underdog does not equal them in that department so they have to work harder. Whereas the favorites also work hard in addition to having the talent to boost.

Our treble winning team was a case of right place at the right time, you can't tell me with a straight face that the management of the club were planning for that to happen? Or even anticipated it in the slightest? It was not an objective.
 
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Zoro

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Umm well I dunno I'd consider us the kind of team I was talking about tbh, anyone who can win the league without the most money and resources I can respect (or under performers which I think we have been up until this year at least), for example Simeone winning La Liga with Athletico Madrid against Arguably the two best teams in the world? How am I supposed to respect Guardiola for going to a made team like Bayern? He is meant to win that league if he doesn't he's a failure if he does he's at least some what good, but I can't consider him amazing Sorry just my opinion.

I don't mean to say you can't be a good manager if you win with an already good team, it's just expected of you if your managing the likes of Bayern.
Now for example I highly respect SAF but that's because the guy won/challenged year in year out for so long. Pep even at Barca had players like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta ffs. Yeah he may have got the 'best out of them' but I think those players even at their worst are pretty fucking good.

Again this is just my opinion and I understand not everyone will rate managers the same way.
 
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shaqi

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There are not a lot of coaches that bring immediate great results in a big club. If he Pep makes City a CL winning club, he just shows how good he is.

Pep is better than he ever was. His philosophy of making football a passing game is top notch. Obviously having great players help, but just having money for great players will not make you build a great team. He knows what he wants and he achieves it.
 

Zoro

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There are not a lot of coaches that bring immediate great results in a big club. If he Pep makes City a CL winning club, he just shows how good he is.

Pep is better than he ever was. His philosophy of making football a passing game is top notch. Obviously having great players help, but just having money for great players will not make you build a great team. He knows what he wants and he achieves it.

Oh for sure if he can make a team that regularly fails to impress at Champions League like Man City win it, I would respect him more as a manager, but if he did so with a team like Arsenal's I dunno to me personally I would respect him even more as a manager, actually him going to Arsenal would be very interesting to me if he can bring them success that would impress me a lot. I think he is a pretty good manager just that the teams he's achieved what he's achieved at, I think it would be likely for most good managers to achieve the same results.

Not that my opinion matters to him, I'm sure he isn't going through forums to see if 'Zoro' rates him highly or not :yao: even if he heard my opinions about him he probably wouldn't give a shit.
 

Zlatan4life

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958102.jpg



go fuck yourself x2

Haha, what?
I haven't said Mou wasn't successful, irrelevent to bring up this picture...

---

And speaking of Mou, Chelsea lost against Leicester away with 1-2.

The former are only one point from the relegation zone!
 

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all of my joy. next up, ko in the knockouts and out with him. i hope he sits on the sidelines for a while and bitches about wenger winning the league.
 

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It happened to Klopp last season and he made it to EL in the end, but he still left. I think Dortmund didn't want him to, but with Chelsea it's different. They can get a top replacement easier.
 

Shark

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Whoops.

I hope to not read any retarded "bring José back" posts here...
 

.h.

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good luck at your next job.
 

Sokrates

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I have tears in my eyes... One does not simply sack Mourinho.
 

Pimpin

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I dont wnat him back, but we need support our club legends, fuck chelsea I hope they get relegated
 
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