Lautaro Martinez

[Johnny Ludlow]

There is a (small) segment of people on this forum who in reality know very little about what's going on inside the club but still feel that they can deduce all the facts from the small pieces of information that drips to media. These people assume that management is doing things out of spite and dumbness. Fact is that these people are intelligent and experienced, that's why they are in these positions and you are vomiting your own deluded ideas of your own intellectual superiority from behind your keyboards. What do I think? I certainly think that management makes mistakes, but that in general their actions are based on fair judgment of what is in reality happening. I would use the principle of charity and thus assume that their actions concerning Icardi make sense. It really is the only sensible interpretatation. Similarly, I would conclude that Brozovic is really not much of a trouble maker.

What I'm trying to say is, that when we have to rely on very limited information, we have to make assumptions. And not all assumptions are equally reasonable

 

[brehme1989]

Fact is that these people are intelligent and experienced, that's why they are in these positions

Ausilio is the best, isn't he?

 

[n4l]

Ausilio is the best, isn't he?

hahahaha....plot twist

 

[Johnny Ludlow]

Point, if not proven, at least strengthened.

Some people seem to think that being ultra critical, pessimistic, ironic and cynical about everything is somehow a sign of intelligence. This, of course, is not the case. It's just as one dimensional and false premise as blindly following and believing everything. Achieving even somewhat balanced view of things requires work and intellectual honesty. I am not saying I am that guy, but at least I'm bloody trying.

 

[brehme1989]

There's a dual issue here. First is that not everyone has the same information and even if we all did, we don't process information the same way. But I'll leave that for another time and a more open minded audience, broadly speaking.


The other issue here is that you are treating Inter as some sort of corporation just because there's lots of money involved and there's a notion of business sense. Most who do this also do not understand corporation dynamics or multimillion organizations, so they think they know based on what media says (who have no clue about finance or business) or movies and tv shows (some portray this in a decent way, others no, but almost all exaggerate).
We are a football club. The idea is to have the best possible FOOTBALL TEAM. I don't care if the boss gets along with his players, it's not his job to get along with the players or their agents, his job is to make the best possible team without leaking the club's finances. And Marotta so far has done everything but help to create a better team.

-snip- no need for this apparently

There's a million of shitty reasons why a manager may dislike an employee. I cannot blindly side with the management just because "they are intelligent and experienced". In fact, in most companies it's usually dumb fucks that get promoted because they are less of a threat to the top guys [I guess an Ausilio comment is impending here ] unless a really smart person is seen as an asset and that depends on the company's structure.

In football it's different. The manager of the key employees is not a business person. It's usually just a former player with no expertise in managing people other than his own experiences. Tension is bound to happen due to the age of everyone around (typically from 22-35) and due to that, the manager may feel like he's a military person where he commands young rascals that have to obey him. And that follows through with the senior management, which has very limited contact with these key employees. And they have zero respect for them as people when it's the Marotta type of manager. Everyone's a fucking kid that's expendable. That's my main issue with Marotta, not that he was part of Juventus. I wouldn't mind his Juventus past if he wasn't hyped about it so much...

So taking everything into account, the aim of a football team is to have the best possible football squad. The manager's job is to tame these kids and make them perform. Spalletti failed here and he was removed, but the new manager is not given the same group to manage, he's getting a clear out. And that clear out is thus far deteriorating our football squad's quality. So we are operating against the club's best interests.

If anything, the ones who 'trust the management' are just too blind to see that anything else has been going on. The problem arises when these people react negatively to anyone who does not trust the management. I have not seen anything from Marotta thus far that makes me trust his judgement or his decisions. When I see that, I may trust him in the future. But thus far he's left a very bad impression.

snip - no need


If you wanna achieve balance in the way you think then perhaps you need to embrace a more spherical attitude towards the facts. Keeping things as simple as "management is probably right" or the "player is stupid" does not solve anything and it just keeps you in a dichotomy.


As I know that most of the people who will reply underneath won't even bother reading this, I'll just conclude with this: Management doesn't always know best. Management is just politics. And management that messes with the private lives of players is just them being assholes.

 

[Johnny Ludlow]

I obviously don't think that the management is always right. What I argued was that when we don't have enough information, we have to fill in with the best possible assumptions. I believe that for example in the Icardi case the best assumption is that Icardi more or less deserved the treatment. It's pretty far fetched to assume that our organization would do this to our most valuable asset for no real reason. You obviously disagree and I think that we just have to leave this unresolved and move on.

About your story, sure, these things happen. But that it happened to you doesn't mean that it has any relevance when it comes to Icardi case.

 

[YoramG]

Oh my Christ is there any thread where someone isn't arguing about Icardi? Fucking any?

 

[brehme1989]

I obviously don't think that the management is always right. What I argued was that when we don't have enough information, we have to fill in with the best possible assumptions. I believe that for example in the Icardi case the best assumption is that Icardi more or less deserved the treatment. It's pretty far fetched to assume that our organization would do this to our most valuable asset for no real reason. You obviously disagree and I think that we just have to leave this unresolved and move on.

About your story, sure, these things happen. But that it happened to you doesn't mean that it has any relevance when it comes to Icardi case.

I didn't say it bears similarities with Icardi, I'm simply saying that there are too many stupid details that affect relationships in a work place. Icardi's case included.

 

[forzainter257]

Might be more hyped for Lautaro this year than I was last year. I predicted double digits goals in all competitions last year, and he was 1 off that mark, so this year I'll go for at least 15.

he's gonna bombard the shit out of the serie a this season. 20 goals at least

 

[Wobblz]

There's a dual issue here. First is that not everyone has the same information and even if we all did, we don't process information the same way. But I'll leave that for another time and a more open minded audience, broadly speaking.

Live translation: There's a dual issue here (for me). First is that not everyone has the same information - I have inside info you schmucks can only dream of and second, I'm far more intelligent than you lot. I'll leave that for another time and a more open minded audience, meaning I'm neither going to share my supposed inside info, nor I'm going to elaborate on anything cause you won't really "get" it.

The other issue here is that you are treating Inter as some sort of corporation just because there's lots of money involved and there's a notion of business sense. Most who do this also do not understand corporation dynamics or multimillion organizations, so they think they know based on what media says (who have no clue about finance or business) or movies and tv shows (some portray this in a decent way, others no, but almost all exaggerate).

We are a football club. The idea is to have the best possible FOOTBALL TEAM. I don't care if the boss gets along with his players, it's not his job to get along with the players or their agents, his job is to make the best possible team without leaking the club's finances. And Marotta so far has done everything but help to create a better team.

Hm, so your main argument against Marotta's work so far is that he shipped off Nainggolan for free basically and he froze out our main asset in Icardi - both financially insane decisions in vacuum. Yet you fail yet again to understand that indeed, building a better FOOTBALL TEAM is the supposed goal in doing so. A contradiction, failure to "process information" or general delusion, make your pick.

A clusterfuck of irrelevancy AKA the dog story

So you had personal rift with someone who just happened to be your manager AND a neighbor. Don't know what the point of this story was, but nonetheless it can be used for making comparisons. One could infer that you behaved eerily similar to the spoiled brat that Icardi is. First, you get rid of the dog, which is insane in itself, your boss-neighbour could fuck right off right there. Anyhow, you decided to compromise and the beginning isn't that relevant to what happens next.

Then it gets real interesting, behaviorally speaking. Instead of just sucking it up you decide to throw shit at him (Icardi's fake injury) by having people call him in the middle of the night... Lol, you could just keep the fucking dog, no? (Continue training as normal.) Once you've done that, there's no going back - you've descended from the moral high-ground to a filthy cesspit of childish pettiness. Bravo. You shot yourself in the foot. Just as Icardi did.

Now, since I've explained numerous times who's right and who's wrong in the Icardi debacle I won't elaborate any further. The comparison is clear enough I hope.

What I think of your personal story though, cause I think you need a friendly reminder of how society works - the dog drama was a symptom, a catalyst, not the root cause. I even have a theory why that boss would like to put you in your place, but "I'll leave that for another time".

Actually, no. I'll give you some free life coaching and psychoanalysis - you weren't fired because of the dog and you weren't depicted as a "troublemaker" because you don't like your new boss. I suppose you're just as much of an ass with your peers in real life as you are here. People don't care how good you are, professionally, only very rarely they are willing to put up with an ass just cause he's an expert. Generally, people want to work with people that they can at least tolerate. Call it conformism or whatever. It's how this shit works. The moment you start throwing pranks on your coworkers, let alone your boss, cause he "humiliated you" by telling you to do something insane and you falling for it, it's the moment you're out the door. Again, there's certainly a backstory we don't know about but even from what I know for sure, what you just shared, yes - I'd side with the "management". I would've sided with you, any day of the week, as long as you didn't stupidly retaliate like you did. After that you became veeery very hard to defend. You thought you can get away with it. You can't. Icardi can't either.

I'm curious, if they were forcing you out, no matter how you felt about the legitimacy of the reason, and you had an opportunity to drag it for some time would you do it? Asking for a friend.

There's a million of shitty reasons why a manager may dislike an employee. I cannot blindly side with the management just because "they are intelligent and experienced". In fact, in most companies it's usually dumb fucks that get promoted because they are less of a threat to the top guys [I guess an Ausilio comment is impending here ] unless a really smart person is seen as an asset and that depends on the company's structure.


In football it's different. The manager ...[is] usually just a former player with no expertise in managing people other than his own experiences. Tension is bound to happen due to the age of everyone around (typically from 22-35) and due to that, the manager may feel like he's a military person where he commands young rascals that have to obey him. And that follows through with the senior management, which has very limited contact with these key employees. And they have zero respect for them as people when it's the Marotta type of manager. Everyone's a fucking kid that's expendable. That's my main issue with Marotta, not that he was part of Juventus. I wouldn't mind his Juventus past if he wasn't hyped about it so much...


So taking everything into account, the aim of a football team is to have the best possible football squad. The manager's job is to tame these kids and make them perform. Spalletti failed here and he was removed, but the new manager is not given the same group to manage, he's getting a clear out. And that clear out is thus far deteriorating our football squad's quality. So we are operating against the club's best interests.

Another clusterfuck of contradictions. Indeed, there's always some resistance when a new boss comes. People are trying to see what they can get away with. Spalletti failed cause they were too loose in that regard, Luciano is a good guy, nothing wrong about that. But getting someone like Radja, who needed a babysitter so he doesn't get drunk in the night is kinda ridiculous.

Conte is expected to perform right off the bat and that is precisely the reason he's getting a "clear out". At this point the question of "deteriorating our football squad's quality" is secondary to the question that is far more important when we are talking about a FOOTBALL TEAM (you started it but you have no clue what you're talking about). That question is - would the parts we have form a cohesive whole, a foundation of a team, or they'll just remain that - parts, nevermind whether they are quality or not. THOSE are the club's "best interests", not the "best interests" you have for players, players like Icardi and Nainggolan. That have shown that the club's best interests have nothing to do with theirs time and time again. I'm sad to see them both gone but I have no doubt in my mind that it's for the greater good. That's what's important.

Also, let me remind you Conte has managed for over 13 years; Spalletti manages teams since 1995... They both should know very well how to assert dominance so they can do their damn jobs without some egos shitting on their work and shoving the team left and right.

Since this is the Lautaro thread, imagine if his gf posted a video where she is getting drunk and crazy on a social media platform and people of our management did not approve of it. If they had told him off about it he'd probably get pissed because it's none of their business obviously. But imagine the coach or management telling him that she's a bad influence, he has to leave her and all that nonsense. Interfering with his non-football, non-business stuff. That would probably make Lautaro more inclined for an exit, wouldn't it? Would you side with the management if he acts out after 5-6 months of being annoyingly ordered to tell his gf to stop existing on social media? I'm not even saying Wanda levels of ridiculousness here...

Another blatant hypothetical. Nobody told Icardi he should leave Wanda but that doesn't mean that she was in fact a bad influence. It wasn't her naked pictures and all that nonsense surrounding their family, nobody cared about that, ever. It was when she was live on national television spewing shit ABOUT OUR FUCKING CLUB. None of her business either, you have to admit.

If you wanna achieve balance in the way you think then perhaps you need to embrace a more spherical attitude towards the facts. Keeping things as simple as "management is probably right" or the "player is stupid" does not solve anything and it just keeps you in a dichotomy.

Drink some of your own medicine dude. "Spherical attitute towards the facts", lol. Whether you like it or not, there IS a dichotomy. And yes, simple is always better, the simple FACTS that we all have maybe aren't enough for the full picture but they are decisively more than enough for the picture I'm interested in, is Icardi a victim - no, he's not. Similar to your dog story, you might think you were right and you were partially right, but you crossed a line from which there's no return. You both don't get it, sadly. We do.

As I know that most of the people who will reply underneath won't even bother reading this, I'll just conclude with this: Management doesn't always know best. Management is just politics. And management that messes with the private lives of players is just them being assholes.

We read you, my man. Don't you worry about that. It's just that I'm reading desperate attempts at justifying the unjustifiable. It's a healthy rhetoric exercise, in classical Greek fashion, but it's just that - a rhetoric exercise on your part, a futile one. It's scholastics. The management might not always be right, but the management is basically FC Internazionale, the team you are supposedly rooting for. Not FC Mauro Icardi or FC Federico Dimarco. There are reasons for decisions and most often than not those reasons and the actions taken were for the greater good of the club, maybe not the short term one but in the long run. This is what I want to believe, otherwise we should all instantly put on our tin-foil hats and start the crazy conspiracy mill - if the management doesn't take those hard to take but ultimately beneficial decisions, then what the fuck is going on in our club? Double agents? Politics? Covert agendas? Sabotage? Aliens?!?!?!

 

[brehme1989]

Lol, I stopped at the point where you imagined from my post that you read that I was fired at any point

It's also funny that you think that he ever realized that it was me who instructed those calls to be made at night

Just shows your lack of understanding of what is written and why more of these posts are coming. Feels like an epidemic in here.


What's even sillier is glimpsing at the bottom of your post where you think that the management = FC Internazionale. That's ignorance at its best....


P.S: I would like to thank Beppe Marotta, aka "the management" for every trophy Inter has won in its history.... Ridiculous


P.S2: On a more serious note: When you do not have the facts, stay neutral until you do have them..

 

[Wobblz]

It's also funny that you think that he ever realized that it was me who instructed those calls to be made at night

Are you fucking insane?!?! Lol, he never knew. I know you are adamant about this but people aren't as stupid as you think they are.

Lol, I stopped at the point where you imagined from my post that you read that I was fired at any point

Oh, sorry for your feely feels. "Yet I was 'sacrificed' from the company despite causing no problems yet being called a troublemaker for not liking the new manager - I quit when some clueless guy who always asked me if what he did was correct (it usually wasn't) got promoted over me". Sounds like you were basically marginalized. And pick your words more carefully - "I was sacrificed", lol. Sounds like they didn't fire you but you had to quit yourself. Nevermind I'm not reading your posts like the bible dude, get a grip. The outcome is the same tho.

What's even sillier is glimpsing at the bottom of your post where you think that the management = FC Internazionale. That's ignorance at its best....

P.S: I would like to thank Beppe Marotta, aka "the management" for every trophy Inter has won in its history.... Ridiculous

At this point, yes, those people in charge ARE the club itself. Deal with it.

You have JZ and Oriali from the treble years currently. I guess they could intervene right now if they deemed necessary.

P.S2: On a more serious note: When you do not have the facts, stay neutral until you do have them..

You have the alt facts I don't think there will ever be a constructive dialog between you and anyone else here that doesn't support your delusional opinions. It's all a self-serving jumbled mess what you write, at this point I even wonder why on earth would you waste time sharing this shit with us mere mortals... You obviously want to "educate" people, it's not about discussion for you.

 

[Bluenine]

There's a dual issue here. First is that not everyone has the same information and even if we all did, we don't process information the same way. But I'll leave that for another time and a more open minded audience, broadly speaking.


The other issue here is that you are treating Inter as some sort of corporation just because there's lots of money involved and there's a notion of business sense. Most who do this also do not understand corporation dynamics or multimillion organizations, so they think they know based on what media says (who have no clue about finance or business) or movies and tv shows (some portray this in a decent way, others no, but almost all exaggerate).
We are a football club. The idea is to have the best possible FOOTBALL TEAM. I don't care if the boss gets along with his players, it's not his job to get along with the players or their agents, his job is to make the best possible team without leaking the club's finances. And Marotta so far has done everything but help to create a better team.


I'll give you a possible example of how this may cause issues at work that shouldn't exist. This is based on something that happened to me in real life by the way!
So your new manager/director happens to move next to your house. You've been living there before, he's the new guy. Everyone in the neighbourhood knows you but the other guy is new. Everyone at work thinks very highly of you and you're one of the best performers. But your new boss sees you every day and the dynamics are that of boss & employee. What the problem is? You have a big dog. The dog lives in the yard that's adjacent to his new place but at night there's birds and cats going around so the dog ocassionally barks. The new boss' wife wants him to do something about it because their maid who lived in an outhouse just by my place says she cannot sleep and he tells you off in front of everyone in the department to "handle your dog". This goes on for weeks, you become alienated from the office and your new boss of course grows to dislikes you.
Your options are three:
- Move some place else. Why do that? You like it there and you've been there for years. This applies to both parties. But you cannot tell your boss to move, you can tell a random stupid new neighbour to move.
- Change jobs. You were just fine there and had a good thing going.
- Remove the dog from the equation. You really like that dog and ffs it's your dog. A moron shouldn't decide if I have a dog or not in my house just because it's barking 3 times a week after midnight.

So option three was picked. I gave the dog to someone who lived in the country side and it was probably happier there. But that made me dislike this guy even more and there was nothing to patch the relationship. That cost me a lot in the workplace so I had to switch jobs too because there was no way I could cooperate with an asshole like that. Six months later the fucker got his own dog that was barking all day long. I didn't care about the barking of course, but because he was a motherfucker that deserved to be punched in the teeth every 15 minutes but I really did not want to do it I improvized. I had people call his landline and his cell phone every night. 2 am, 4 am, 5:30am. Every single day for some time...

Now, we both did shitty stuff in this situation. But I didn't cause shit, I just retaliated after he humiliated me in front of others and then went on to do what he blamed me for doing! Yet I was 'sacrificed' from the company despite causing no problems yet being called a troublemaker for not liking the new manager - I quit when some clueless guy who always asked me if what he did was correct (it usually wasn't) got promoted over me - and the new manager was actually fired within the year I left... But until I reacted, I don't think anyone who knew the facts could really side with the new manager. Does my reaction mean I was wrong all along? Because that's what is being implied here for several ongoing arguments.

Now based on what I see here, people would side with the management for sending me, the troublemaker, away. Because "the management knows best". But what I'm trying to say is that most company related issues happen for the silliest of reasons. You cannot side with management and treat football just like a random corporation. I knew a guy who was forced to resign after being tormented by his boss for months because he once went out in the same group as his college student daughter.... He didn't even speak to her but they shared a bloody photo that his boss saw on his daughter's laptop

There's a million of shitty reasons why a manager may dislike an employee. I cannot blindly side with the management just because "they are intelligent and experienced". In fact, in most companies it's usually dumb fucks that get promoted because they are less of a threat to the top guys [I guess an Ausilio comment is impending here ] unless a really smart person is seen as an asset and that depends on the company's structure.

In football it's different. The manager of the key employees is not a business person. It's usually just a former player with no expertise in managing people other than his own experiences. Tension is bound to happen due to the age of everyone around (typically from 22-35) and due to that, the manager may feel like he's a military person where he commands young rascals that have to obey him. And that follows through with the senior management, which has very limited contact with these key employees. And they have zero respect for them as people when it's the Marotta type of manager. Everyone's a fucking kid that's expendable. That's my main issue with Marotta, not that he was part of Juventus. I wouldn't mind his Juventus past if he wasn't hyped about it so much...

So taking everything into account, the aim of a football team is to have the best possible football squad. The manager's job is to tame these kids and make them perform. Spalletti failed here and he was removed, but the new manager is not given the same group to manage, he's getting a clear out. And that clear out is thus far deteriorating our football squad's quality. So we are operating against the club's best interests.

If anything, the ones who 'trust the management' are just too blind to see that anything else has been going on. The problem arises when these people react negatively to anyone who does not trust the management. I have not seen anything from Marotta thus far that makes me trust his judgement or his decisions. When I see that, I may trust him in the future. But thus far he's left a very bad impression.

Since this is the Lautaro thread, imagine if his gf posted a video where she is getting drunk and crazy on a social media platform and people of our management did not approve of it. If they had told him off about it he'd probably get pissed because it's none of their business obviously. But imagine the coach or management telling him that she's a bad influence, he has to leave her and all that nonsense. Interfering with his non-football, non-business stuff. That would probably make Lautaro more inclined for an exit, wouldn't it? Would you side with the management if he acts out after 5-6 months of being annoyingly ordered to tell his gf to stop existing on social media? I'm not even saying Wanda levels of ridiculousness here. I've seen someone being told off because their wife posted her new car on Facebook because it was 'interfering with group dynamics' as he was slightly better paid than the rest, ignoring the fact that his wife was a General Manager at some pharmaceutical company whilst the other people's wives there were just random office employees or hairdressers, making her perfectly able to buy a new Porsche Cayenne by herself... He didn't leave, but he did start disliking his bosses for interfering with his life. Probably left by now though. Some things are just not tolerated for a long while when they become personal. Someone may say this about Wanda and Perisic, but that unnecessary remark was still football related and not a personal attack.

If you wanna achieve balance in the way you think then perhaps you need to embrace a more spherical attitude towards the facts. Keeping things as simple as "management is probably right" or the "player is stupid" does not solve anything and it just keeps you in a dichotomy.


As I know that most of the people who will reply underneath won't even bother reading this, I'll just conclude with this: Management doesn't always know best. Management is just politics. And management that messes with the private lives of players is just them being assholes.

Wow

 

[brehme1989]

Lol, thank fuck you edited those big letters because it was yet another embarassing miscomprehension on your behalf.

This is more of a story one says in person because when there are ommissions or misunderstandings a simple question can fix it, but let me just conclude that promotion was made by the guy I was talking about, not by his seniors.
Either way, the whole example was just to show how anything can cause problems at any working environment and that football should not be treated in the same way - as much as possible, there are cases where top playes were sent away for sleeping with the coach's or owners's daughter - due to its uniqueness.

The way Marotta operates, everyone is expendable regardless of what they offer on the pitch. I don't agree with extra priviledges for the top performers myself, but treating them like garbage for no valid reason related to football is a big no no. In a football club a player cannot just say "I quit" and get on with his life. There are many parameters that need to be respected from both ends. And our current management is not doing a great job.

No need to dig into it too much and offer psychological profiling, I already know where I stand on that aspect.

P.S: The actual real story is somewhere in between because I mixed two different examples. The dog story happened when my new teacher became my neighbour and that happened daily in front of class so my parents had to react as she was affecting my grades and all that. The job thing happened in a corporation somewhere else and the out-of-work issue was that I hanged out with his wife at the gym and he hated it. He forced me to change my fucking gym and I refused for a long time until I eventually just stop going to one coz I got sick... But felt better to just mix em up for some reason to show how stupidity can run in any environment where appeal to authority comes at place. Both felt very similar though in how they reacted and assumed that because "they are the boss" things had to go their way otherwise I was a "spoiled brat". I'm pretty sure many have similar experiences or have seen managerial authority treating others like dirt because of their 'expertise' and 'intelligence' as we've seen described here. Ah, the calls were something that I didn't do myself towards the teacher's home but someone else I knew towards her husband, felt it would spice the story up if I said I had done it. But it's true that it was done and I loved it at the time. Said person volunteered to come at my place and bark along with the dog as well

But I enjoyed mostly that you misread everything tbf because it enhances my overall point.

 

[Wobblz]

Lol, thank fuck you edited those big letters because it was yet another embarassing miscomprehension on your behalf.

Guilty. I began skimming over your posts recently. It's the same thing over and over again ad infinitum. No trace of the legendary "Spherical attitude towards the facts" and after all we mortals dont have "the facts". Which is highly convenient, I admit.

 

[rfU]

Going up against EPLs strongest defensive pairing tomorrow. Should be a good test for him and good indication for us and Conte on how much we can rely on him going forward.

 

[YoramG]

Going up against EPLs strongest defensive pairing tomorrow. Should be a good test for him and good indication for us and Conte on how much we can rely on him going forward.

He's not in the team my friend.kay:

 

[Solfice]

He's not in the team my friend.kay:

Aah, really? Long live Longo and Perisic?

 

[ElDuccio]

We should open a new forum... "Forza Icardi forums"

 

[thatdude]

This is the Lautaro thread. Please stay on topic