Lionel Messi, GOAT?

Bergpavian

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2002 was actually amazing on paper and they still went without Riquelme, Palermo and a few others.

Favorites iirc were France (lol) and Argentina was 2nd.

Copa America, apart from 97(?) they only lost to Brazil. And they didn't play in 2001 which imo they'd finally win because their team was threatened.

Yeah, I meant: Going out so early with that team was worse than Italy's disaster or the German performances in the last Word Cups.



Didn't they lose twice against Chile? Edit: Yes. And 1997 against Peru, twice against Uruguay and four times against Brazil.
 

brehme1989

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Yeah, I meant: Going out so early with that team was worse than Italy's disaster or the German performances in the last Word Cups.

Yeah misread your post and assumed you referred to other Argentina squads from the future.

Didn't they lose twice against Chile? Edit: Yes. And 1997 against Peru, twice against Uruguay and four times against Brazil.

I meant the team up to that generation before relying on Messi.

The Uruguay and Chile defeats came in the 2010s, no?
Brazil sucked in the 2010s anyway so losing to them would be bad. But 2000s Brazil was great. And 90s, too.
 

bubba zanetti

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He won golden ball but wasnt even voted for best new player in MLS. Golden ball award is travesty.
 

Alex de Large

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of the 8, probably deserved 4, what a joke.
 

Alex de Large

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2010 Sneijder that's for sure.
And 2023 Haland
 

brehme1989

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2010 Sneijder that's for sure.
And 2023 Haland
Not so sure Sneijder was blatant but perhaps if we were more hyped that season.

2010 could have gone to Iniesta as well for example.
 

Alex de Large

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2010 anyone but Messi. No world cup and not champions league and yet this year they give him this because of the world cup! makes no sense. If 2010 was to the best 'individual player' ok, then this year should go to Mbappe, Bellingham or Haland who are better individual players than Messi right now.
 

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I'd like to revisit what I previously mentioned about the commercialization of the Messi and Ballon d'Or connection.

From a commercial standpoint, it is in their best interest to have Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo compete for/win the Ballon d'Or. This generates interest, and increased interest translates to higher commercial revenue. Outside of trophies and footballstatistics, I'm also interested what Messi's commercial revenue/worth is. Now, imagine on the height of the commercial succes (2010 for instance) Messi would not win the Ballon d'Or? They simply would not allow it IMO.

Ofcourse there is more nuance to it then only the commercial impact - but it's certainly a topic that needs to be kept in mind when discussing Messi, and CR. Look around, football is changing massively.
 

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If you're asking me which football player had the best career then yes Messi is definitely up there competing with C.Ronaldo.

But if you ask me which player in his prime would you choose to be in your team for one season then Messi isn't even on my top 5 list. The guy is one of the best players in history but still overrated for various reasons compared to other better players.
 

brehme1989

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If you're asking me which football player had the best career then yes Messi is definitely up there competing with C.Ronaldo.

But if you ask me which player in his prime would you choose to be in your team for one season then Messi isn't even on my top 5 list. The guy is one of the best players in history but still overrated for various reasons compared to other better players.
who makes your top 5?
 

M.Adnan

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who makes your top 5?

From the top of my head I'd take (in order) L.Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Zidane and Adriano. Remember this is if I want only one season of their prime in my team.
 

brehme1989

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From the top of my head I'd take (in order) L.Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Zidane and Adriano. Remember this is if I want only one season of their prime in my team.
yeah fair enough

Wondering where you rate Baggio, Totti, Laudrup, Zlatan, Stoichkov and Figo with that kind of parameters
 

M.Adnan

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Wondering where you rate Baggio, Totti, Laudrup, Zlatan, Stoichkov and Figo with that kind of parameters

All are close calls, but Zlatan is the closest. Players like him, Ronaldinho, L.Ronaldo, Adriano etc had their moments where it just becomes ridiculous. I've never seen anyone doing what they've done.
 

brehme1989

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All are close calls, but Zlatan is the closest. Players like him, Ronaldinho, L.Ronaldo, Adriano etc had their moments where it just becomes ridiculous. I've never seen anyone doing what they've done.
I feel like you're valuing 'end' actions more than the creative distributing aspect (exhibit Laudrup, Totti etc). I could also see you preferring someone like Romario over a player like Batistuta or Shevchenko.

I'd put Robby Baggio* in your list though. I'd also put Messi but it seems you don't want to so I won't fight you there :D

*
 

M.Adnan

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I feel like you're valuing 'end' actions more than the creative distributing aspect (exhibit Laudrup, Totti etc). I could also see you preferring someone like Romario over a player like Batistuta or Shevchenko.

I'd put Robby Baggio* in your list though. I'd also put Messi but it seems you don't want to so I won't fight you there :D

*

I actually have both Baggio and Messi in my top 10 list, and I do prefer Shevchenko over Romario, so we're on the same page on this. 😬
 

brehme1989

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and I do prefer Shevchenko over Romario, so we're on the same page on this. 😬

Hm, interesting.

Romario was more efficient I believe and more flashy & creative as well.

I used to love Shevchenko as a player overall, except when he was playing against us and turned to Satan ( :lol: ) and hated that Milan managed to hit the lottery with him and truly believe he's in the top 5 strikers of his generation. Ronaldo, Vieri, Shevchenko and Trezeguet imo at top 4, with Raul, Van Nistelrooy and Crespo fighting for that 5th spot. Vieri is slightly older but at least he's part of that generation, whereas guys like Batistuta, Romario or even Shearer were significantly older
 

M.Adnan

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Hmm maybe I'm a bit biased towards Shevchenko as he's a constant rival and I've watched him way much more than Romario. The guy was a headache and same goes for Kaka. And btw I've always thought that Crespo was underrated and I rated him higher than Vieri even though I was a fan of the latter more (before he left Inter).
 
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