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Dave54

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Well, seems like Saudis can step in and buy the whole thing. Then we don't have to think about getting Bento and a few others to sell our stars. Can't be worse, as of now, right?
 

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Will only be able to judge when we know what Oaktree plans and/if we get new owners and who they are.
 

.h.

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That's exactly what they've been doing.
But there's more to it.

Once again, and please answer for once because you've been avoiding this for years: How much of Zhang's loan interest payment is coming from Inter finances?

No I havent, I've directly addressed this a few times.

Very, very little.

Great Horizons has been incurring a significant interest on the debt, but very very little of that ever transferred onto Inter's books, and what did was quickly converted to equity.


I'll pull out the exact figures now. Gimme a minute
 

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Win the treble -> banter era

Win the 2021 scudetto -> Conte, Lukaku, Hakimi out with threats of bankruptcy

Win the second star -> Suning defaulting on a loan and we end up property of a hedge fund.

Jesus Christ. Can’t have anything nice.

Typical life of an Inter fan.
 

javier_zanetti <3

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When the debt is converted to equity, as Zhangs have done with like 400-500mil or more with Inter, please remind me how it makes the clubs life harder? The financial equivalent of a cash injection from a sugar daddy, and a loan to the club that is debt2equity conversion is 100% equivalent...
For example, in the last three years, just the interest on the loan has cost the club tens of millions of euros, which it doesn't have anyway. Secondly, others have rightly pointed out that in addition to the owner's debt, there are also bonds in the amount of 400 million euros that the club has to pay back in 2027. That is, in the scenario where Zhang does obtain a loan of €400 million until 2027, this means that the total debt of the club and the owner is €800 million, excluding current deficit.

Now explain to me how for you it is financially healthy to behave like this? How is a business of this size supposed to remain competitive without a strong financial back? It's a conduct that is bound to crash and the only reason it hasn't crashed so far is the players, Inzaghi, Marota and the rest of the team.

By the way, in general, you have listed incorrect things here. If the club moves to Oaktree and is sold, Sonning gets back the value of the loan, not the value of the club minus the loan.
 

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I just dont see how this is a bad thing. Zhang is passionate and its always nice to have an owner who supports the team but the guy and Suning are dead broke. We already cant invest shit into the squad unless its free. We've sold numerous high-profile players(Lukaku/Hakimi) or not extended them for financial reasons(Perisic). Like how much worse can that get? Zhang has been hemorraging money and relying on loans to keep us functional for 4 years now. We are champions of italy and reached a CL final because of Moratta and Inzaghi. Not Suning. Suning put those pieces together and I'll give them their credit for that but thats it.

The only scenario where I would be concerned is if Oaktree sells the club to an owner who purges everything and starts fresh. But seeing as how Marotta owns Italy and Inzaghi is one of the hottest coaching names on earth I dont see that happening. This is an opportunity to gain stability. Also, its not like Juve nor Milan are opening the bank books and signing world class players left and right. Juve just fired their coach and Milan are about to. We will be fine.
 

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Page 18 of our financial statements for 21-22:


Total interest owed to parent company (Great Horizon is the loanee, so re-loans the money to Inter) for 21-22 was 4.8 million euros, for 20-21 it was 5.5million euros.
22-23, it was 6.3million euros of interest


So on a loan of 275m (?) which is 415mil repayable, only so far about 15million euros is actually being bore by Inter. That's without a 23-24 statement, though, obviously.



In 22-23, Zhangs converted 127million euros of debt to equity (paragraph 3, first page) - https://www.inter.it/media/downloads/2023/2023_10_27_13_57_35FC Inter Group_Consolidated Annual Financial Statements_FY ended 30 June 2023.pdf

In 21-22, that figure was I think 15 million (paragraph 3 page 1 - https://www.inter.it/media/downloads/2022/2022_10_28_12_32_40FC Inter Group_Consolidated Annual Financial Statements_FY ended 30 June 2022.pdf)

And in 20-21, 132million euros converted - https://www.inter.it/media/pdf/Inter-management-report-30.06.2021b.pdf


As I said, its fuck all impact on Inter. It's impact on Zhang and Great Horizons, but none of us need to give a shit about that. Likely less than 10% of the interest of the Oaktree Loan is being paid for by Inter.


I know no one will believe me, so look for yourself.

Page 18 https://www.inter.it/media/pdf/Inter-management-report-30.06.2021b.pdf

Great Horizons loaned the club 75mil - 'Shareholder loans', we were then paying 8% interest (paragraph 3 page 1) on that loan - which was also converted to equity during the course of the season.


Inter is not, and has never been, liable for the Oaktree/Great Horizons loan. That sits entirely on the Great Horizons book. Some of that money has been loaned on to Inter, at interest rates *LOWER* than the Oaktree/Great Horizons loan, which has incured SOME cost from Inter, but over a few years you're not talking a huge amount (e.g. maybe 10-15% TOTAL of the interest the Great Horizons loan incurs)


What functionally happened is Zhang probably borrowed too much money, didnt expect to get as much as he did with plusvalenza on Lukaku/Hakimi, stadia recovered faster than expected, and then had a great run to the CL final which all helped to boost revenues, so we didnt need as much money as he expected us to need.



For example, in the last three years, just the interest on the loan has cost the club tens of millions of euros, which it doesn't have anyway. Secondly, others have rightly pointed out that in addition to the owner's debt, there are also bonds in the amount of 400 million euros that the club has to pay back in 2027. That is, in the scenario where Zhang does obtain a loan of €400 million until 2027, this means that the total debt of the club and the owner is €800 million, excluding current deficit.

Now explain to me how for you it is financially healthy to behave like this? How is a business of this size supposed to remain competitive without a strong financial back? It's a conduct that is bound to crash and the only reason it hasn't crashed so far is the players, Inzaghi, Marota and the rest of the team.

By the way, in general, you have listed incorrect things here. If the club moves to Oaktree and is sold, Sonning gets back the value of the loan, not the value of the club minus the loan.

Its total 15 million euros of interest in the last 3 years my bro. We've spent more on taxes probably.


Also, wtf are you talking about, Suning get back the value of the loan? That's nonsense, its like suggesting if you default on your house with a 1mil mortgage, the bank gives you 1mil after selling the house. They dont. They give you the difference between sale price, and the 1mil you owe them.
 
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.h.

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I just dont see how this is a bad thing. Zhang is passionate and its always nice to have an owner who supports the team but the guy and Suning are dead broke. We already cant invest shit into the squad unless its free. We've sold numerous high-profile players(Lukaku/Hakimi) or not extended them for financial reasons(Perisic). Like how much worse can that get? Zhang has been hemorraging money and relying on loans to keep us functional for 4 years now. We are champions of italy and reached a CL final because of Moratta and Inzaghi. Not Suning. Suning put those pieces together and I'll give them their credit for that but thats it.

The only scenario where I would be concerned is if Oaktree sells the club to an owner who purges everything and starts fresh. But seeing as how Marotta owns Italy and Inzaghi is one of the hottest coaching names on earth I dont see that happening. This is an opportunity to gain stability. Also, its not like Juve nor Milan are opening the bank books and signing world class players left and right. Juve just fired their coach and Milan are about to. We will be fine.

TBH, its not necessarily a bad thing, its just risk. We have no idea what a new owner will do. A proper vulture fund could asset strip us. Bye bye Barella, Lautaro, Bastoni, etc. Get their cash out paid as dividends and then sell off whatever is left of the club.

It could also be an incredible new owner.

A capital firm like this, though, most likely will look for the highest guaranteed return on investment, so whoever pays the most (with minimal risk/'bonus' etc) will likely end up with Inter, not based on sporting vision, investment plans, etc.


At least I like our current ownership because we know where they stand. They'll spend money pragmatically, and propel us to progress, and put their hand into their pocket when they really need to. They also have made some great plusvalenza decisiosn in the last few years, which have led to us continually reinforcing the team. The path we're treading at the moment has been a very successful one, and if we could continue it (which we can, if the small amount of loans + the bonds were wiped off of our books + a little bit of cost balancing), then this club can continue in its current direction.
 

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I would agree with you. But I just dont see a club as big as we are being used for those purposes listed(Selling our best players and investing little).

Its certainly possible but the pushback would be absolutely unreal. I could see us selling Lautaro to help balance the books for a sale but honestly that may happen regardless. I think its best to keep our heads up and high. We are champions and have a great management team with an elite coach.

Just pray we dont end up with owners like United. If a group like that buys us i will be concerned.
 

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I would agree with you. But I just dont see a club as big as we are being used for those purposes listed(Selling our best players and investing little).

Its certainly possible but the pushback would be absolutely unreal. I could see us selling Lautaro to help balance the books for a sale but honestly that may happen regardless. I think its best to keep our heads up and high. We are champions and have a great management team with an elite coach.

Just pray we dont end up with owners like United. If a group like that buys us i will be concerned.

The thing is, its so hard to say.

The benefits of buying an Italian club are quite limited. We probably make like >85% of the 'potential revenue' this club could bring in (on a reliable/recurring basis - there's growth in commercial, sponsorship, but its not like we're not making CL revenue). The next big steps are hard work in terms of bringing in better sponsors, or building a stadia. There's no easy money left - Roma ? and not before that for MANY years was the last time a CL-qualified Italian club was sold.

It's different to, say, the premiership and buying a middle club trying to break into the Top 4. Breaking into the top 4 there means you can return hundreds of millions on your investment quickly. There's no easy path to that in Italy if you're already in the CL. Hell, when was the last time a top 4 premiership club sold even?


Anyway, just trying to manage expectations. Things could be really exciting. They could be really depressing. I'd rather the certainty - with all the strengths and weaknesses - of Zhangs right now until I had a clear view on a great new owner.



If you look at a typical private equity cycle, its a 5 year plan to buy a business, invest, reap rewards, exploit, and subsequently - exit. The investments are all geared at SHORT TERM returns or balance sheet impacts, to pump valuation for the next exit. What investments can you make in Inter that will give you significant certainty for the next transaction? A stadia investment is the only thing, in terms of it adding value to the balance sheet, but that'll take more than 5 years to complete anyway so its still a liability until built.

So really our only upside compared to Zhangs is some kind of saudi prince who will pump the cash, but I dont really want that, its just Moratti 2.0, and the second they lose interest we're absolutely fucked.
 
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Dave54

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What is more prestigious for a rich owner to buy, Inter or Aston Villa?
 

.h.

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What is more prestigious for a rich owner to buy, Inter or Aston Villa?
when was the last time an italian club was bought for prestige please?

Whereas it strikes me Villa was bought just 6 months ago, at a valuation of more than £500m, by several billionaires, and for that investment, they're guaranteed / almost guaranteed to be in the CL next year = massive revenue boost.
 

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Maybe there's a buyer we don't know about.

In any case milanisti are shitting bricks rn, their club went to vulture too, their worst nightmare is Inter getting a healthy new owner. All the key players and Simone getting their contracts and Beppe will get 200M€ transfer kit just for warm up the UCL chase.

( or John Elkann buys Inter through the offshores, sells all the key players for 600M€ creates a Serie D financial and bribe scandal and then laughs at those 400M€ losses)
I’m rather convinced there is a buyer, otherwise Oaktree would never go down this route. They do so because there is a substantial enough gain for them to do so.. I think they would more than gladly negotiate a new deal with Zhang if not so, but playing like this indicates they have a chance of making a quick profit… Don’t be surprised if a deal is already in the drawer
 

Dave54

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when was the last time an italian club was bought for prestige please?
Inter is a great team, with great coach and management. Why are you downplaying Inter? We don't spend a lot, like City or PSG but we stay competitive. I like the stability of the new ownership. This is going nowhere.
 

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Inter is a great team, with great coach and management. Why are you downplaying Inter? We don't spend a lot, like City or PSG but we stay competitive. I like the stability of the new ownership. This is going nowhere.
How am I downplaying us? I'm just stating a fact man. Villa was bought less than 6 months ago by multiple billionaires.... At a valuation not THAT much lower than Inter.


Also, how can you possibly say 'the stability of new ownership' when we have no idea who will own us, what that will look like, etc?
 

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What is more prestigious for a rich owner to buy, Inter or Aston Villa?
Depends on the angle he wanna aim. Italy commercial value is a joke. Stadium building has been hindered for decades. While any freaking club in Premier League is a cash generating machine.

Unless I am a 1990s football fan I wouldnt use my resource on Inter. Zilliacus here we come :lol:
 

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when was the last time an italian club was bought for prestige please?

PL clubs aren't bought for prestige unless you're talking Manchester United.

They're bought as an investment vehicle, a money laundering machine and/or as a sportswashing mechanism.


A prestige acquisition would mean that the owner is willing to be drained cash for that right. That was Moratti for example.
A prestige based acquisition comes from a wealthy fan, not fund.
 

Dave54

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How am I downplaying us? I'm just stating a fact man. Villa was bought less than 6 months ago by multiple billionaires.... At a valuation not THAT much lower than Inter.


Also, how can you possibly say 'the stability of new ownership' when we have no idea who will own us, what that will look like, etc?
By stability, I mean Arab guys with money. It's embarrassing to follow our transfer policy. To get a mediocre player, we have to sell someone. No American Ownership for sure.
 

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By stability, I mean Arab guys with money. It's embarrassing to follow our transfer policy. to get a mediocre player, we have to sell someone. No American Ownership for sure.

an Arab with money is probably the least stable owner we could get. They'll get bored one day and move off to something else. City and PSG have the benefits of basically being state backed entities.. Look at how the Saudi league had its support just drop overnight. remember Anzhi when eto'o went there??
 

Dave54

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Saudi league is far away from being top 5 league.
 
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