General Football Debates

[Wings]

@Javier'sSon

I don't know what this micro-macro stuff is...the clearest way of determining which league has stronger sides is to have them go head-to-head. That's what they do in European competition, and the results are clear. Spanish teams are the strongest.

More data to back up what I'm saying...

I took a look at the list of Spanish football transfers last summer and looked at La Liga forwards who moved to other top 4 leagues. I then looked at how many goals they scored in their last season in Spain vs. this past season (when they were playing in other leagues). If what you are saying is true, these forwards should have scored much more in Spain against all those shite defences. Here's the list of forwards (second column is goals scored/game in La Liga 2014–15, third is goals scored/game in their new league in 2015–16):
Pedro (Spain to England)..........................6/35......7/27
Juanmi (Spain to England)........................8/34......0/7
Javier Hernandez (Spain to Germany)........7/23......17/28
Mandzukic (Spain to Italy)........................12/28....10/27
Bacca (Spain to Italy)...............................20/37....18/38
Jhon Cordoba (Spain to Germany)..............4/26......5/21
Deulofeu (Spain to England)......................1/17......2/26

The only forward who really supports your assertion is Juanmi and maybe Pedro. Otherwise, (cursory) evidence suggests that forwards in Spain who move to other big leagues tend to have similar scoring rates.

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I'll go ahead and give this round to Wings. Your turn.

lol, I didn't even answer the initial question...

Here's my topic: Inter would have finished in CL spots if they had played in another top 4 league this past season.

 

[Shaun]

I think we do play better when teams try to play football against us because we don't know how to break down teams who defend in big numbers. And teams in other countries tend to be slightly more offensive. However, no. I don't think so. We might get close in the Bundesliga, but I don't watch that league enough to make a informed judgement.

I don't think we finish in the top half in England. Our fullbacks get raped by all the quick wingers there. Our physical midfield wouldn't be very physical there, and our forwards would get manhandled there.

 

[crzdcolombian]

You can't blame Ranieri for playing one of his players. That could have happened in any game.

You need to use your 60 million dollar star against a 4th division team?

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You can't blame Ranieri for playing one of his players. That could have happened in any game.

You need to use your 60 million dollar star against a 4th division team?

 

[thatdude]

I think we do play better when teams try to play football against us because we don't know how to break down teams who defend in big numbers. And teams in other countries tend to be slightly more offensive. However, no. I don't think so. We might get close in the Bundesliga, but I don't watch that league enough to make a informed judgement.

I don't think we finish in the top half in England. Our fullbacks get raped by all the quick wingers there. Our physical midfield wouldn't be very physical there, and our forwards would get manhandled there.

Shaun,

I think you have a tendency to be overwhelmingly negative when it comes to Inter. You don't think we could have beaten out Stoke City? Or this season's Chelsea?

 

[Shaun]

Shaun,

I think you have a tendency to be overwhelmingly negative when it comes to Inter. You don't think we could have beaten out Stoke City? Or this season's Chelsea?

This isn't just an Inter thing. It's a EPL being ridiculously strong especially mid-table thing. And stylistically I think we would struggle with English teams. Italian teams that do well against English sides either typically have so much technical ability that the EPL pressing is irrelevant, or can soak up pressure and counter well. We don't do either one of those things well.

Also, this isn't just us. I think most Italian sides would struggle and do significantly worse in England.

Lastly, I think would do pretty well in La Liga. Not top 4, but we would get a similar points tally, maybe slightly more.

 

[bandiera]

I think we do play better when teams try to play football against us because we don't know how to break down teams who defend in big numbers. And teams in other countries tend to be slightly more offensive. However, no. I don't think so. We might get close in the Bundesliga, but I don't watch that league enough to make a informed judgement.

I don't think we finish in the top half in England. Our fullbacks get raped by all the quick wingers there. Our physical midfield wouldn't be very physical there, and our forwards would get manhandled there.

just for the record, jovetic wasnt manhandled when he played at city. eder and perisic are both well built too. icardi struggles in physical battles but i dont think it takes much away from his game (if he becomes more consistent on the counter). nagatomo copes well against quick wingers, and i don't think d'ambro struggles against pace either. i also think a midfield of medel, melo, kdog, brozovic definitely offers enough physicality.

we don't counter well, but i think we counter well enough for a tenth place finish in tandem with our defensive work. we're definitely more competent on the counter going forward (although our transitions are generally laughable). my opinion is that we'd finish around 8th in england.

 

[Kakaroto]

The only other league I could see is maybe the Bundesliga because there is a huge disparity after Dortmund and Bayern. For Spain and England I think it would be a challenge because after teams realize if you let Inter have the ball you have won half the battle it's over. Not that I think they'd get relegated but the same thing that plague them in Serie A would plague them there.

 

[ADRossi]

0% chance we would even qualify for the Europa league in England or Spain. The pace of play in both leagues would destroy us since we do not play counter attacking football well. However, this year a few traditionally strong terms struggled in the Bundesliga. I could see us finishing 3rd, ahead of Bayer.

 

[Wings]

I'll give this round to Black Jesus. Your turn.

 

[Kakaroto]

After Black Jesus who is the best poster on FIF?

Or feel free to answer this...

The concentration of power, resources and talent between a few teams is ruining football? Or no actually the sport has never been more popular and will only get more popular when they inevitably create the European Super League.

 

[ADRossi]

The concentration of power, resources and talent between a few teams is ruining football? Or no actually the sport has never been more popular and will only get more popular when they inevitably create the European Super League.

I think it's ruining football in leagues (such as Serie A/Bundesliga) where there isn't enough money for the inferior teams to even put up a semblance of a fight. Matches are less competitive, there are less games fans are willing to attend, and the overall talent pool is diluted. The English League will be alright because all of their teams are fairly wealthy and can afford to build relevant and competitive teams. There are players who make more money per year than Empoli's roster - and Empoli is a mid-table Italian team.

With that being said, the sport is probably more popular than ever. The teams with the most money (with the exception of Enlgish teams) are the teams with the most fans. Barca fans want to see Barca do well, and probably care little about the competition they have to face.

I think the Super League will be better for the sport. Group stage matches in the UCL with countries from Azerbaijan and Moldova aren't entertaining nor interesting. If the league has four groups, with groups that look like: Dortmund, Arsenal, Napoli, Benfica - Schalke, Atletico, Juventus, Chelsea games will be more fun and I'm guessing attendance will be better.

 

[crzdcolombian]

German league is way better and their clubs are way better because younger Germans get more of a shot then a Young Italian does in the league. Their youth teams do better their Italy's as well. Italy the issue is we take the garbage that didn't work in other leagues and very old players. Italy lacks the money and the talent or the desire to play their own players.

I mean I find it super funny Juve and Inter were linked to Marlos Moreno for 7 million euro after only 6 months of being a pro. Or any of those u20 River or Boca kids. None of those teams are better then a Sampdoria yet euro teams would slit each other throats for those players. They would come to eat bench for a shit ton of money. Instead of you know just using a 20 year old from our youth system.

 

[Wings]

Super League better for the sport or for crowds? I'm not sure re. the crowds. On one hand there would certainly be more regular matches between top European teams from different countries. In the short term that would definitely get more people interested than watching Barcelona take on BATE. In the long run? Maybe the excitement would sustain, but part of me thinks that people who support smaller teams go out to games against big teams because it's a fairly rare occasion (two times a year in the league, maybe once or twice in cups). Would fans of Arsenal be eager to see games if they knew that every game was against a big team? (This is assuming that the European Super League would replace domestic competitions).

Good for the sport? I don't think so. Surely this would just concentrate and consolidate all footballing power into the top countries even more? How do you decide if a team is no longer big enough or good enough to compete in ESL? And something just doesn't feel *right* about it.

 

[Kakaroto]

Dylan comment on the topic instead of just thanking.

 

[Dylan]

Too sunburned. Can't comment.

 

[_OC_]

I think the current developments are much more damaging to the sporting side of things than people realize.

As we've seen already, centralization and concentration of money to a few, top European clubs (and then of course anything English) is leading to a situation, where what you do on the pitch really doesn't matter a whole lot.
It doesn't matter if Dortmund was in a Champions League final and won two championships based on talent-nurturing, smart management and a miracle worker of a coach some seasons ago - they'll continue to get their best players stolen by Bayern - who, by the way, could win the Bundesliga with their bench if they wanted to - on a regular basis for the rest of eternity.

When Simeone leaves, Atletico will plummet down to obscurity again, and Real and Barca will continue to be the best two clubs in the world - forever. Although there should be no doubt as to which of the three clubs has done the best job based on their available resources; but that doesn't matter, ultimately, because ALL it comes down to, is how many resources you've got.
And don't even get me started on Leicester - they'll be in mid-table come December.

It doesn't matter if Chelsea had their worst season since before Ranieri - they just cancelled their already record-breaking sponsor deal to sign with another sponsor to almost double that amount.
The same goes for United. It doesn't matter that they didn't make it into the Champions League and that they squandered 250 mil. pounds on transfers the last two years; that's not even a dent in their economy - they'll continue to make the most out of any club in the world bar Real and Barca for the rest of eternity, no matter what they do.

What I'm saying is, in the long run, success on the pitch doesn't matter nearly as much as money - and maybe it's always been that way, but it sure hasn't been as clear as it is now.

We're still seeing the ripples in the water from the restructure of the Champions League in 92'. Back then, short term, it had ruined the competitiveness of clubs like Ajax, Anderlecht, Benfica and handful of genuine world class Eastern-European teams (when do you think you'll see a Romanian team ever win the finest competition in Europe again? Never again, is the answer of course), who used to be big, big players on the world stage. Now, instead of concentrating the power and wealth into a few countries (England, Italy, Spain, to an extent Germany and France), FFP (and I'm not really against Financial Fair Play rules, something needed to be done - but we're stuck with an eternal status quo if something doesn't change) has concentrated the power and wealth into 1 league, and then 5 or 6 other clubs - and let's be real, it won't be long before even Bayern can't keep up with Barca, Real, and the English.

As per the "Bate vs. Barca"-debate? I agree, a hundred percent - why would I want to watch Bate? I don't, because the system is so structurally and systematically in favour of Barca, that Bate doesn't stand a chance, on- or off the pitch.
Remember almost 20 years ago, though?

Saying that clubs from countries that aren't the usual suspects, doesn't have their place in European football, is so elitistic and frankly arrogant. That's assuming, that football is only for the top clubs, and it isn't. They're only off worse, because UEFA made a system where they couldn't compete.

Maybe I'm prematurely spelling out the end of the world, seeing as we've had Atletico in two Champions League finals, Juventus in 1 (when you have to point out fucking Juventus as an abnormality, you know something's fucked) and City in a semi-final, but I don't think it'll be long before we'll only see the same 5 or 6 clubs, at the most, regularly in the semi-finals.
We'll never see another Red Star - never another Porto.
It's Bayern, Barca, Real, Chelsea, United, PSG, Bayern, Barca, Real, Chelsea, United, PSG, rinse, repeat for the rest of our lives.

Would I love Inter to be a part of that group, and could we have been, had we capitalized on our Treble win? Yes, and maybe, are the respective answers to those questions, but that doesn't change a thing - this isn't sour grapes. This is a genuine concern. Football maybe hasn't been this popular in the world, ever (but I assume this has more to do with the modernization of a lot of countries, and the spread of technology), and it might never have made this much money, but for all, but a really tiny, insignificant percent of the football clubs in the world, your hopes of ever achieving anything on a bigger scale are over.

A 'Super League' won't change anything. If anything, as Wings already mentioned, it'll only further saturate the market. I remember a couple of years ago, when Barca - Arsenal or Barca - PSG were mouthwatering ties. Now they're just ties, because we've seen them a trillion times. But because it's only the same clubs that qualify from the group stages, it'll continue to be like that.
And I don't see that as being a good thing. Not for football as a whole, anyway.

 

[JJM]

I dunno where to put this so I'll do it here...

Slovenian federation president Aleksander Čeferin has official support from Italy,the Scandinavian countires(Denmark,Sweden,Finland,Norway),some of the eastern Europena(former Yugo countries,Albania,Greece,Turkey too) countries for the role of the new UEFA president replacing mafioso Platini.He didn't announce his official candidacy yet though.He has time to do so till 20 July but he will make an official statement on 8 June when there is a FA meeting of presidents in Moscow.
There are some other candidates from Spain (Angel Maria Villar) ,Portugal (Fernando Gomes),Greece (Theodor Theodoridis) and Poland (Zbigniew Boniek)
The only official candidate though is Michael van Praag from Holland,They will pick a president on 14 September

The dude is very capable as he is a well known lawyer in Slovenia,but the guy could be potentially very dirty as he represented a lot of scumbag Slovenian politicians in court tbh.He also runs our FA obviously and I don't like him much as he has little knowledge about the sport itself...
I don't know what is his stance on FFP either

 

[Kakaroto]

I'll go ahead and give _OC_ this round. Your turn to choose a topic man.

 

[_OC_]

What's more important/prestigious - club- or national team football and why? And what brings you more joy/misery?

 

[thatdude]

Club football unless it's world cup