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Since when did Goetze start playing for PSV?! And why?
German Bundesliga 2020/2021
- Thread starter Il Drago
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10 years of FIFHe was a free transfer this summer. Sad case tbh. A player who was finished before 25.
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Bayern have now won nine of the last ten meetings against Dortmund in the so-called "Klassiker" (a name that needs to be dropped ASAP).
Nothing against Dortmund. Very good team and very well run especially from a player recruitment perspective. But they can't compete with Bayern's finances, history, or location. Nobody in Germany can. I don't know if I've written this here before - I certainly have elsewhere - but Munich is Germany's top city from an international perspective. It might just be the top city in all of Europe. Compared to a much smaller city in a post-industrial region, and there's no contest.
Nothing short of salary caps could bring Bayern to heel. And you'll certainly never see me endorse the implementation of salary caps.
Nothing against Dortmund. Very good team and very well run especially from a player recruitment perspective. But they can't compete with Bayern's finances, history, or location. Nobody in Germany can. I don't know if I've written this here before - I certainly have elsewhere - but Munich is Germany's top city from an international perspective. It might just be the top city in all of Europe. Compared to a much smaller city in a post-industrial region, and there's no contest.
Nothing short of salary caps could bring Bayern to heel. And you'll certainly never see me endorse the implementation of salary caps.
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Best Football Poster
Best Overall PosterThe fact Nurnberg remains the team with the second most titles in Bundesliga (9) despite not winning it since 1968 tells you everything you need to know about the dominance of Bayern in the league. They decided to name Bayern-Dortmund as Der Klassiker simply because the league wanted to have one special game, like every other top league, and Dortmund were the most consistent Bayern rival in recent years. The truth is Bayern have dominated in Germany at such an extent they have no real rival in the league.
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10 years of FIF
Nostradamus
Most Passionate MemberDortmund lost 5-1 to Stuttgart at home...
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Best Football PosterBest Overall PosterThey have been very inconsistent this season and it was expected tbh. They don't have the squad to play in two competitions so they're suffering in Bundesliga because of their participation in CL.
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10 years of FIFJust for the record and those who keep on insisting we need to sign a big name coach Hansis biggest job as head coach before this was coaching TSG Hoffenheim in the 3rd highest german league...
I know he was assistant for a long time but still....
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10 years of FIF
Facts though. Dortmund can't rival Bayern's dominance but we sure can secure 2/3 trophies a decade. It certainly was a possibility in 2018/19. Like inter, Dortmund lacks strong leaders who can carry the team on their backs. This is compounded by a series of nice guy coaches who don't push the players hard enough (Favre: "I’m okay with one point"). But ultimately Bayern has more resources and better players.
But right now Dortmund's biggest problem is the defense. We can't seem to defend set pieces for whatever reason and this has dragged on for years. Lets hope the new manager can figure something out we can't keep having to score 3+ goals to guarantee wins.
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I know how that read, but the real reason that name needs to be dropped is because it's a blatant marketing rip-off from "El Clasico" with no understanding that El Clasico is just as much a political rivalry between Barcelona (and, to a broader extent, Catalonia as a whole) and Madrid as much as it is a sporting rivalry between the clubs. To my knowledge, other than maybe one city being more Catholic and the other more Protestant (and that's maybe, but Germany's Catholic/Protestant split tends to skew more South for Catholics and more North for Protestants), there's no political or cultural rivalry between Munich and Dortmund. One is one of Europe's biggest and most important cities. The other...is none of those things. Dortmund just happens to have the best football team in Germany that doesnt play in Munich, which is great for them but it's not the foundation for an El Clasico-level rivalry.
Just ask Germans. Most of them that I've seen hate the name.
Just ask Germans. Most of them that I've seen hate the name.
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10 years of FIF
There's is no historical rivalry and there's really nothing "classic" about it. It's basically a 1st versus 2nd with Dortmund being Bayern's most consistent challenger to the title since the 90s. But it remains highly entertaining and quite heated, definitely one of the better rivals around. Le Classique (Marseille/PSG) follows along the same sense. It's basically a marketing campaign to draw in viewers.
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberExactly. Not that many countries have a "classic" derby.
You have River-Boca which is the world's most iconic derby and its Superclásico name is more than deserved. And it is the original "classic" derby.
The Clásico is essentially a copy of that, yet not really comparable. It was mostly Barcelona's attempt to pretend they were rivals with the Madrid clubs due to their political complexities and the Franco regime. They viewed Atlético Madrid as equal rivals until the Laszlo Kubala saga (Barcelona winners) which was followed by the Di Stefano saga (Real Madrid winners). Real Madrid dominated Spanish football ever since that and the Basques (Bilbao and Sociedad) were the first to break the reign. The 70s were quite even with Atlético, Barcelona, Real and Valencia winning something while other teams where around too. The rivalry was heated due to politics, not football. The late 80s is when the rivalry became genuine and the only reason it remains "El Clásico" is because Deportivo never managed to stay at a competitive level, Betis screwed up their chances to become a top team, Valencia collapsed while Atlético Madrid was unstable and managed to get relegated with Ranieri managing a top 3 candidate. Barcelona had it ups and downs but both them and Real managed to stay at a top level.
The German league is not that different. Bayern wasn't really a top team until the 70s. And they usually were one of the top 3 teams over the next three decades. Then German football fell behind as they didn't follow England, Italy and Spain in flooding yheir teams with foreigners. Dortmund emerged in the 90s with Ottmar Hitzfeld and then they managed to slowly be integrated into the elite of German football. That was because Gladbach, the original strong Borussia, collapsed after their epic 70s run, Hamburg was more shit than not, Schalke didn't reach another peak like the 30s and 40s, Werder had a strong run after Rehaghel and that was it, Stuttgart never became a dominant force, Wolfsburg had a few good years but that was it, Nurnberg is a non-factor, yet still are 2nd in league titles (think of them as Genoa/Torino kind of club), the 1860 team never took off and Kaiserslautern was a firework.
Bayern became what it is in the 80s. No other team managed to parallel this run and even Dortmund doesn't look much different from the Werders, Hamburgs and Stuttgarts of yesteryear. The only thing they have in advantage is media being more focused on football and more international these days.
The only genuine candidate for a "classic" game for Germany would have been Bayern München vs Nurnberg. But it never happened.
Dortmund vs Schalke is not relevant enough, Werder vs Hamburg is a non-factor and so on. Gladbach vs Bayern could have also been one but Gladbach never maintianed that level.
England also lacks this. Liverpool vs Manchester United is mostly an internal geopolitical rivalry and a history book one, as in who will fill the history pages rather than being main rivals of each other. I made a post on this some time ago, I think amongst their 60+ trophies they competed with each other for less than 10. That's not a genuine football competition rivalry, it's mainly a statistical occurrence. Usually one is quite shit when the other is winning.
A real rivalry is Inter vs Juventus for example. It has everything and it goes back to the 1920s, making it one of the few 100+ year old competitive rivalries in football.
Other European ones are of course Celtic vs Rangers, probably the oldest heated rivalry in the world. And it's actual hatred.
You have big games in Portugal as well but not to this extent, you have the Greek classic derby which also dates almost 100 years with Panathinaikos vs Olympiacos. You have Partizan vs Red Star in Serbia. You have Ajax vs Feyenoord in the Netherlands.
Countries like Germany, France and England just do not have this. They have more parity and less dynastic rivalries. And when they have dynasties, they're usually unrivalled or the second fiddle is not a constant.
Manchester United had Arsenal, then Chelsea, then Manchester City as main rivals during Ferguson era as main rivals.
Liverpool had Leeds, Nottingham, Aston Villa and Everton. I think therr was a Liverpool and Everton run in the 70s or 80s that was the longest streak of league titles staying in the same city in English football.
Whereas in France you had St Etienne, Marseille, Lyon and now PSG being dominant. Without much trouble. The only times the league was competitive was in the 50s, with Reims usually winning, the 90s and the late 2000 after Lyon collapsed. Based om how UEFA fucked football, I don't think we'll see an end to PSG's run. Just like Bayern cannot be stopped in Germany either.
It's just funny to compare some genuine rivalries with some marketing attempts that are being made. Even Milan vs Juventus is a fictional rivalry to some extent. Only surfaced in the 50s and wasn't really intense, something like Arsenal vs Manchester United. They competed for trophies, but they all have other priorities when it comes to rivalries. The Italian duo of course share their main rival in Inter, which is also why they never really hated each other that much.
You have River-Boca which is the world's most iconic derby and its Superclásico name is more than deserved. And it is the original "classic" derby.
The Clásico is essentially a copy of that, yet not really comparable. It was mostly Barcelona's attempt to pretend they were rivals with the Madrid clubs due to their political complexities and the Franco regime. They viewed Atlético Madrid as equal rivals until the Laszlo Kubala saga (Barcelona winners) which was followed by the Di Stefano saga (Real Madrid winners). Real Madrid dominated Spanish football ever since that and the Basques (Bilbao and Sociedad) were the first to break the reign. The 70s were quite even with Atlético, Barcelona, Real and Valencia winning something while other teams where around too. The rivalry was heated due to politics, not football. The late 80s is when the rivalry became genuine and the only reason it remains "El Clásico" is because Deportivo never managed to stay at a competitive level, Betis screwed up their chances to become a top team, Valencia collapsed while Atlético Madrid was unstable and managed to get relegated with Ranieri managing a top 3 candidate. Barcelona had it ups and downs but both them and Real managed to stay at a top level.
The German league is not that different. Bayern wasn't really a top team until the 70s. And they usually were one of the top 3 teams over the next three decades. Then German football fell behind as they didn't follow England, Italy and Spain in flooding yheir teams with foreigners. Dortmund emerged in the 90s with Ottmar Hitzfeld and then they managed to slowly be integrated into the elite of German football. That was because Gladbach, the original strong Borussia, collapsed after their epic 70s run, Hamburg was more shit than not, Schalke didn't reach another peak like the 30s and 40s, Werder had a strong run after Rehaghel and that was it, Stuttgart never became a dominant force, Wolfsburg had a few good years but that was it, Nurnberg is a non-factor, yet still are 2nd in league titles (think of them as Genoa/Torino kind of club), the 1860 team never took off and Kaiserslautern was a firework.
Bayern became what it is in the 80s. No other team managed to parallel this run and even Dortmund doesn't look much different from the Werders, Hamburgs and Stuttgarts of yesteryear. The only thing they have in advantage is media being more focused on football and more international these days.
The only genuine candidate for a "classic" game for Germany would have been Bayern München vs Nurnberg. But it never happened.
Dortmund vs Schalke is not relevant enough, Werder vs Hamburg is a non-factor and so on. Gladbach vs Bayern could have also been one but Gladbach never maintianed that level.
England also lacks this. Liverpool vs Manchester United is mostly an internal geopolitical rivalry and a history book one, as in who will fill the history pages rather than being main rivals of each other. I made a post on this some time ago, I think amongst their 60+ trophies they competed with each other for less than 10. That's not a genuine football competition rivalry, it's mainly a statistical occurrence. Usually one is quite shit when the other is winning.
A real rivalry is Inter vs Juventus for example. It has everything and it goes back to the 1920s, making it one of the few 100+ year old competitive rivalries in football.
Other European ones are of course Celtic vs Rangers, probably the oldest heated rivalry in the world. And it's actual hatred.
You have big games in Portugal as well but not to this extent, you have the Greek classic derby which also dates almost 100 years with Panathinaikos vs Olympiacos. You have Partizan vs Red Star in Serbia. You have Ajax vs Feyenoord in the Netherlands.
Countries like Germany, France and England just do not have this. They have more parity and less dynastic rivalries. And when they have dynasties, they're usually unrivalled or the second fiddle is not a constant.
Manchester United had Arsenal, then Chelsea, then Manchester City as main rivals during Ferguson era as main rivals.
Liverpool had Leeds, Nottingham, Aston Villa and Everton. I think therr was a Liverpool and Everton run in the 70s or 80s that was the longest streak of league titles staying in the same city in English football.
Whereas in France you had St Etienne, Marseille, Lyon and now PSG being dominant. Without much trouble. The only times the league was competitive was in the 50s, with Reims usually winning, the 90s and the late 2000 after Lyon collapsed. Based om how UEFA fucked football, I don't think we'll see an end to PSG's run. Just like Bayern cannot be stopped in Germany either.
It's just funny to compare some genuine rivalries with some marketing attempts that are being made. Even Milan vs Juventus is a fictional rivalry to some extent. Only surfaced in the 50s and wasn't really intense, something like Arsenal vs Manchester United. They competed for trophies, but they all have other priorities when it comes to rivalries. The Italian duo of course share their main rival in Inter, which is also why they never really hated each other that much.
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Forum Supporter10 years of FIFThe last time Bayern conceded that many goals after 15 games was in the season 1981/82. Neuer hasn't kept a clean sheet for 10 games - a new personal "record" for him.
Edit: And Schalke missed the record of 31 games without win from Tasmania Berlin by beating Hoffenheim 4:0.
Edit: And Schalke missed the record of 31 games without win from Tasmania Berlin by beating Hoffenheim 4:0.
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberGerman Cup is best cup! Shame there were no fans for the handball team.