General Primavera Discussion

[thatdude]

Wasn't Manaj playing professionally last year in a lower division?

 

[bandiera]

Wasn't Manaj playing professionally last year in a lower division?

oh shit, you're right. it's a pretty large fee for someone from our primavera. if he was that good, then he shouldn't be here. if he wasn't, then we overpaid.

i'm generally not a fan of youth hype or signing so many players that aren't developed here. i want to see inter develop its own. i see our youth players and there's a douchebag, condescending mentality with most of them and barely any of them have grown up at inter and care about this club.

i also think we have a poor selection process for coaches in the primavera. for one, based on a few of the games i watched of our youth team on youtube in 2012, stramaccioni should have never been coach of our youth teams because his approach was to be ultratactical at youth level which is oblivious. the current manager, stefano vecchi, has excelled because he plays a very organized game but this is someone that was coach of a serie b team before. i don't think he's "changed" his philosophy as coach of inter's primavera which is also quite wrong. just my two cents. it takes a very different manager to be the best youth coach than the best pro manager. a rough comparison would b soemone like rafa vs someone like mourinho.

 

[.h.]

wait, what?

if anything, I thought Strama was uber organised and a real Mourinho clone at the Primavera level.

He let the players express themselves (look at Bessa as a great example) and gambled on less proven players (MBaye and Duncan are prime examples, they had basically not played any high level football before coming to Inter), and still retained the core that was Inter (Crisetig, Benassi..?, Bessa, etc).

Strama was a perfect Primaverea coach, to be honest. Vecchi is also very good.

 

[Ronin]

browha, why do you think Strama was so good at the Primavera level but failed at the senior one

 

[.h.]

I think there are a few reasons:

1 - He got dazzled. Working with big names, things like that, he struggled to assert himself as well as he did at the Primavera level. There are few egos at Primavera level, and most I would say realise it is an opportunity to a career, rather than a career in itself.
2 - The pressure got to him. When things didnt go his way, he quickly went back on things he felt strongly about (i.e. 4-2-3-1), which was his real shining point
3 - The 'intensity' was something he wasnt prepared for. Media who are all chummy when you're doing well, then VICIOUS when you even show a hint of stumbling? It's fucking vicious, and I couldn't imagine dealing with that. The level of fakery, or backstabbing.
4 - Experience is clearly a big part of it too.
5 - His team at Primavera level was dominant over other teams - i.e. technically better, physically better, everything. Did not have that at Serie A level.

 

[thatdude]

Browha do we know what the primavera is looking like this year? It Ze Turbo still with Inter and expected to be the striker? Is Appiah ready to play a big role? Opoku?

I can't even see a roster last time I checked on Inter.it

 

[.h.]

They'll still be updating it for the new season.

The first match was played a few days ago, the line up was:

Radu; Gyamfi, Gravillon, Della Giovanna, Miangue; Bonetto De Micheli De La Fuente; Appiah Correia Baldini


Bench was

Bollini, Bakayoko, Mitta, Pissardo, Colombini, Equizi, Mattioli, Sobacchi, Tchaoule, Zonta, Delgado, Mari Sanchez (the guy who scored a couple of days ago in training)


We drew vs chievo 1-1, a little disappointing in some ways, the team has mixed up a lot since last year. Sad that Delgado only makes the bench...

 

[thatdude]

Delgado impressed me the least of any of the recent primavera kids to get a chance to play with the big boys. Liked Baldini much more, very tactically astute in comparison to Delgado.

 

[.h.]

all I know is that he was massively hyped a year or two ago

 

[thatdude]

Yeah I remember him being linked to Chelsea youth team and getting time with Portugal youth teams

 

[bandiera]

wait, what?

if anything, I thought Strama was uber organised and a real Mourinho clone at the Primavera level.

He let the players express themselves (look at Bessa as a great example) and gambled on less proven players (MBaye and Duncan are prime examples, they had basically not played any high level football before coming to Inter), and still retained the core that was Inter (Crisetig, Benassi..?, Bessa, etc).

Strama was a perfect Primaverea coach, to be honest. Vecchi is also very good.

But that's the point. imitating Mourinho at youth level = misunderstanding your role as youth manager. point of the Primavera isn't to win games but to improve and develop the players you have. in terms of style, you should be looking for possession based football from the coach because it gives more opportunity to work on decision making and express technical skills. the baseline shouldnt be the scoreline but the performance. results at this level have some weight because they can create a winning mentality but not at the expense of everything else.. secondly, you want a strong 1v1 coach who knows how to individually coach players to improve in the vein of sarri, zeman, benitez etc. for example, I think the biggest reason Crisetig didn't develop for years is because he didn't get the right coaching here. individual training remains the most imporatnt thing from a coach at this level.

this is why i dont rate stramaccioni at the primavera level. i remember watching games on youtube where we would scrape away a win with individual brilliance from bessa+longo and the rest of the team playing a defensive and ultratactical game. you don't want to give 1 player the chance to express themselves, you want to give that opportunity to all your players. same goes for vecchi, because the coaching approach should be different at youth vs senior level. using players like camara and ze turbo who abuse their physical advantage at this level is wrong.

there are merits to strama's style but there are much bigger merits in what he didn't do. i think the fact we start tactical work and fit players into a specific position so early is the reason why most of the players that have come through our youth system are either strikers or defenders. to me, our approach for the primavera squad would be more relevant to a B team/u23 vs u19. this is why a lot more players developed at inter are able to make the jump up to the berretti and allievi vs make the jump up to the primavera, because the step up is too high and too different. our primary policy for the primavera is still to sign lots of 16,17,18 year olds instead of giving chances to the players we've developed.

 

[thatdude]

I think the whole "don't teach kids tactics" argument shouldn't be applied to primavera level. Isn't the Italian school of football based on tactical superiority? That doesn't mean you should only teach how to park the bus but learning different tactical schemes from a young age is an advantage IMO not a disadvantage. We don't want players that lack technical skills, but we also don't want players who lack the IQ to be effective in a unit with the technical skills they possess.

 

[bandiera]

I think the whole "don't teach kids tactics" argument shouldn't be applied to primavera level. Isn't the Italian school of football based on tactical superiority? That doesn't mean you should only teach how to park the bus but learning different tactical schemes from a young age is an advantage IMO not a disadvantage. We don't want players that lack technical skills, but we also don't want players who lack the IQ to be effective in a unit with the technical skills they possess.

it's not between one or the other. i'm not saying "don't teach kids tactics", after u15 you need to focus your players into a position, but the balance is all wrong for a primavera side. again, we treat it like a B team.

teaching them advanced tactics at a young age isn't a disadvantage, but it's what you're not doing that leaves them at a disadvantage. we're talking about u15 and above here. the focus should still be on developing technical skills and style. gradually there should be more integration of tactics by the year, but there is a big difference between our primavera and our berretti in terms of the type of coaching and its a big barrier for players to grow through our youth system. you're also talking about two different things. playing it ultratactical at youth level has nothing to do with players that are not able to play in an organized environment. you're making it black and white and you're equivocating things that aren't equal. you can give players roles and teach them to use their skills in certain positions in a more tactical environment without playing an ultratactical game.

 

[.h.]

But that's the point. imitating Mourinho at youth level = misunderstanding your role as youth manager. point of the Primavera isn't to win games but to improve and develop the players you have. in terms of style, you should be looking for possession based football from the coach because it gives more opportunity to work on decision making and express technical skills. the baseline shouldnt be the scoreline but the performance. results at this level have some weight because they can create a winning mentality but not at the expense of everything else.. secondly, you want a strong 1v1 coach who knows how to individually coach players to improve in the vein of sarri, zeman, benitez etc. for example, I think the biggest reason Crisetig didn't develop for years is because he didn't get the right coaching here. individual training remains the most imporatnt thing from a coach at this level.

this is why i dont rate stramaccioni at the primavera level. i remember watching games on youtube where we would scrape away a win with individual brilliance from bessa+longo and the rest of the team playing a defensive and ultratactical game. you don't want to give 1 player the chance to express themselves, you want to give that opportunity to all your players. same goes for vecchi, because the coaching approach should be different at youth vs senior level. using players like camara and ze turbo who abuse their physical advantage at this level is wrong.

there are merits to strama's style but there are much bigger merits in what he didn't do. i think the fact we start tactical work and fit players into a specific position so early is the reason why most of the players that have come through our youth system are either strikers or defenders. to me, our approach for the primavera squad would be more relevant to a B team/u23 vs u19. this is why a lot more players developed at inter are able to make the jump up to the berretti and allievi vs make the jump up to the primavera, because the step up is too high and too different. our primary policy for the primavera is still to sign lots of 16,17,18 year olds instead of giving chances to the players we've developed.

He improved the players a lot. We were focused on possession based football, allowing people such as the full backs and MCs to express themselves, gave Bessa a huge amount of creative freedom.

Crisetig, I think, didnt develop out of his own saturation, there are plenty of players who came on a long way aged 16-18 at Inter.

Just because you grind out a few games (which, to be honest, is a very important lesson in any footballer's career) doesnt mean that is the standard for the team.

 

[bandiera]

He improved the players a lot. We were focused on possession based football, allowing people such as the full backs and MCs to express themselves, gave Bessa a huge amount of creative freedom.

Crisetig, I think, didnt develop out of his own saturation, there are plenty of players who came on a long way aged 16-18 at Inter.

Just because you grind out a few games (which, to be honest, is a very important lesson in any footballer's career) doesnt mean that is the standard for the team.

i dont think our style was right for youth football. a 4312 at u19 level where the team depends on a trequartista is making things too tactical. theres a balance here. it looked more like we grounded out most of our games in the next gen series. the winner of the final in my opinion wasn't inter but ajax. grinding out a game can teach a lesson but theres a limit, and the lessons that you arent learning when you do that are a lot more important in the context of youth developmnt.

the philosphy of being ultratactical at youth level and signing so many hyped up players at this level is also a big barrier to developing our own from scratch. there is a massive difference in coaching and quality from the berretti to the primavera that makes it too large a jump, because we run it like a u23 team. the step up is from dudes like sergio zanetti, benoit cauet, and cerrone to a serie b coach.

i disagree re crisetig. under zeman for example he grew a lot. thats the kind of individual coaching im talking about.

 

[.h.]

i dont think our style was right for youth football. a 4312 at u19 level where the team depends on a trequartista is making things too tactical. theres a balance here. it looked more like we grounded out most of our games in the next gen series. the winner of the final in my opinion wasn't inter but ajax. grinding out a game can teach a lesson but theres a limit, and the lessons that you arent learning when you do that are a lot more important in the context of youth developmnt.

the philosphy of being ultratactical at youth level and signing so many hyped up players at this level is also a big barrier to developing our own from scratch. there is a massive difference in coaching and quality from the berretti to the primavera that makes it too large a jump, because we run it like a u23 team. the step up is from dudes like sergio zanetti, benoit cauet, and cerrone to a serie b coach.

i disagree re crisetig. under zeman for example he grew a lot. thats the kind of individual coaching im talking about.

We also relied on Crisetig's DM skills. We relied on Duncan breaking up play. We relied on MBaye. Such are all decent teams, to be honest.

Again, you say it's ultra tactical like he's making them play like Benitez would? I dont see where you have this impression.

We dont sign THAT many hyped up dudes, to be honest, and our Primavera (waiting for the full squadlist) in the last couple of years have been more % home grown than ever before.

 

[bandiera]

We also relied on Crisetig's DM skills. We relied on Duncan breaking up play. We relied on MBaye. Such are all decent teams, to be honest.

Again, you say it's ultra tactical like he's making them play like Benitez would? I dont see where you have this impression.

We dont sign THAT many hyped up dudes, to be honest, and our Primavera (waiting for the full squadlist) in the last couple of years have been more % home grown than ever before.

i was talking about mourinho, not benitez who was my example of a good youth coach, because he can play an attractive, balanced, organized game and he's great at 1v1 coaching with young players.

no doubt different players in our team then had different roles and it was wellorganized, but the point is that play was funneled through bessa as treq and that's not good because it doesn't give other players enough oppurtunity to express themselves. the roles in a 4312 also dont encourage versatility which is why its not a good formation to use at youth level. 433 or 442 is usually nt used at youth level when the formation in the primavera is coordinated with the senior team, but that wasn't even the case..

we sign too many hyped up dudes for my liking. this season we paid 2 mill for two players for our primavera. our primavera has more homegrown players than ever before, but i still think there is a lot left desired (i want to be clear this is just an armchair opinion). according to transfermarkt, we have 15 non-italian players in a squad of 30. out of the rest, there are only 3 from the lombardy region. out of those 3, who knows how many are good enough to start.

 

[.h.]

Can you produce comparable numbers for Juve, Roma, and AC?

Its seldom we spend that much cash on Primavera players. The last comparable big signing I can think of was Tassi like 3-4 years ago. We passed up Mastour because he was not in line with our budget.

I'll reserve judgement on them for a year or two.

Also, its probably heavily bonus based, and not 1m cash.

 

[Universe]

It's not right to judge from one pre season friendly, that too against Milan's first team. But if I were to judge from that, I never want to see Delgado again.

Also, we have a player called Pissardo?

 

[Me2]

Baldini (15') and Delgado (18') both scored and it's 2:0 after 35 minutes of playing.