Philippe Coutinho

[Stefan]

He was bad yesterday. Barely did anything right.

I thought he had a better first touch.

He started of well. Then miscontrolled one ball and then really struggled when he was switched to the right flank to accomodate milito.

 

[DIN011]

He started of well. Then miscontrolled one ball and then really struggled when he was switched to the right flank to accomodate milito.

He looked decent, but far from being starting material. His first touch looked pretty bad when he was on the left too. Remember that cross that he couldn't take down and it went to a throw in instead?

 

[Sneijder4President]

First off...He offers no more or less at the moment then Pandev...With that being said, I'd rather him get the experience in there over Pandev wasting space...

I know all the Pandev slappies will talk about his greatness (even messi can't compare) but he's simply a hard worker...Nothing more, nothing less...He lacks creativity IMO...

But the reason for this post...Cou had some bright moments and some ugly ones...

However, this team did him no favors yesterday...How many times are we going to play a long ball in the air for him to try and win? The kid is tiny and needs passes low or on the ground...You dont see Barca putting 50/50 balls in the air for Messie do you?

Cou stands no chance on those situations...Its a weak point of his game..So why the team (Maicon ect) plays that lofted ball to him is beyond me...

 

[Stefan]

He looked decent, but far from being starting material. His first touch looked pretty bad when he was on the left too. Remember that cross that he couldn't take down and it went to a throw in instead?

He mis controlled one ball. Happesn to everyone occasional. You have to remember it was his first massive game. The kid has never probably played in front of so many people. He was a bit nervious.

He should be a starter at this stage, he needs a bit of time before he gets to that level.

 

[perika]

i never find anything special in pandev.

he he..... u must back one year ago presisly 4.01.2010

 

[perika]

He mis controlled one ball. Happesn to everyone occasional. You have to remember it was his first massive game. The kid has never probably played in front of so many people. He was a bit nervious.

He should be a starter at this stage, he needs a bit of time before he gets to that level.

he will be good but he need time,games (some kilos and muscul) he is weak must be strengthened

 

[n4l]

**note: this post is not to hate/criticize coutinho. it is meant to provoke real thought**

after watching this weekend's games, i was left with one question about youth level and youth expectations...

what criteria do we use in pinning different levels of expectations on different youth players?

It has been very, very, very difficult for me to understand the low levels of expectations that are placed on coutinho. Seriously. It seems as though most are satisfied if he makes a couple of nice passes, receives the ball well, and exhibits some flair (whether successful or not). Why are the levels of expectation so low?

What criteria determines the level of expectation...

Immediately, i drew comparisons to our most recent youth prodigies, Santon and Balotelli. Balotelli didn't score on his debut. But in his second outing, scored a double against Reggina, then scored a fuckin double against Juve in Turin. HUGE. And 17 years old. Santon was also very similar. A team with Maxwell and Chivu and the kid just exploded onto the scene, defending like a veteran and attacking up the line. Again 17. A year later, @ 18, our expectations of these players were to perform, simple as. If Santon came in a "just did a couple nice passes", it would not be enough. Same goes for Balotelli. So why were the expectations on those players so high, yet the expectations on coutinho so low, especially if he's been labelled as this "prodigy"??

Then, i watched a game this weekend and got to see for about the 15th time, a player named Jack Wilshire. 18 years old, same height as Coutinho. Have you seen this kid play on a regular basis? kid is HUGE. Making a few "simple passes" are not enough. And he made his debut at 16 in the Carling Cup (3 games) and had a goal AND an assist....HUGE. So then, why are expectations for this kid so high yet for our prodigy, it's so low? Then that got me thinking about Cesc, playing first team @ Arsenal since 16, and making a few passes certainly were not enough....



In all honesty, this is why i am harsh on this kid. And honestly, i don't think i am harsh, I am just being real. One of those idiot fanboys wanted to tell me that "i was proven wrong" because coutinho got a 7 from gazetta from his ONE performance against Werder. I was left flabergasted and really pondering, what are these guys really expecting from coutinho? NOTHING? No substance? A couple 1-2's? An "almost" assist? An "almost" goal? If that's the case, suazo/mancini can do that easily.....so then what is it?

To me, he is not doing enough. Football is about results, not whether you "look ok" and are "doing ok". Making simple passes, receiving properly e.t.c. should be FUCKIN MANDATORY, not something good.

look at bojan at barca....guy is amazing: speed, intelligence, superior technique e.t.c. but wasn't producing the goods...the guy who was (pedro) leapfrogged him, as it should be. Doing the simple stuff is not enough...

so again, what criteria do we use in pinning different levels of expectations on different youth players?
and if you do have criteria, then:
(1) what are your expectations fo coutinho?
(2) are they different to your expectations of santon when he was 18 (a year ago) or balotelli when he was 18?
(3) if so, why?
(4) if you judge him using the same criteria, then how would you really rate him as of today?

 

[vitomins]

**note: this post is not to hate/criticize coutinho. it is meant to provoke real thought**

after watching this weekend's games, i was left with one question about youth level and youth expectations...

what criteria do we use in pinning different levels of expectations on different youth players?

It has been very, very, very difficult for me to understand the low levels of expectations that are placed on coutinho. Seriously. It seems as though most are satisfied if he makes a couple of nice passes, receives the ball well, and exhibits some flair (whether successful or not). Why are the levels of expectation so low?

What criteria determines the level of expectation...

Immediately, i drew comparisons to our most recent youth prodigies, Santon and Balotelli. Balotelli didn't score on his debut. But in his second outing, scored a double against Reggina, then scored a fuckin double against Juve in Turin. HUGE. And 17 years old. Santon was also very similar. A team with Maxwell and Chivu and the kid just exploded onto the scene, defending like a veteran and attacking up the line. Again 17. A year later, @ 18, our expectations of these players were to perform, simple as. If Santon came in a "just did a couple nice passes", it would not be enough. Same goes for Balotelli. So why were the expectations on those players so high, yet the expectations on coutinho so low, especially if he's been labelled as this "prodigy"??

Then, i watched a game this weekend and got to see for about the 15th time, a player named Jack Wilshire. 18 years old, same height as Coutinho. Have you seen this kid play on a regular basis? kid is HUGE. Making a few "simple passes" are not enough. And he made his debut at 16 in the Carling Cup (3 games) and had a goal AND an assist....HUGE. So then, why are expectations for this kid so high yet for our prodigy, it's so low? Then that got me thinking about Cesc, playing first team @ Arsenal since 16, and making a few passes certainly were not enough....



In all honesty, this is why i am harsh on this kid. And honestly, i don't think i am harsh, I am just being real. One of those idiot fanboys wanted to tell me that "i was proven wrong" because coutinho got a 7 from gazetta from his ONE performance against Werder. I was left flabergasted and really pondering, what are these guys really expecting from coutinho? NOTHING? No substance? A couple 1-2's? An "almost" assist? An "almost" goal? If that's the case, suazo/mancini can do that easily.....so then what is it?

To me, he is not doing enough. Football is about results, not whether you "look ok" and are "doing ok". Making simple passes, receiving properly e.t.c. should be FUCKIN MANDATORY, not something good.

look at bojan at barca....guy is amazing: speed, intelligence, superior technique e.t.c. but wasn't producing the goods...the guy who was (pedro) leapfrogged him, as it should be. Doing the simple stuff is not enough...

so again, what criteria do we use in pinning different levels of expectations on different youth players?
and if you do have criteria, then:
(1) what are your expectations fo coutinho?
(2) are they different to your expectations of santon when he was 18 (a year ago) or balotelli when he was 18?
(3) if so, why?
(4) if you judge him using the same criteria, then how would you really rate him as of today?

If he continues to play this way for the entire season, you are right...he is not doing enough. I love the kid, but I expect more from him to be honest. Unless he begins to make more of a contribution, this season will be a disappointment. The only thing i can think of is all the players you mentioned trained in Europe their entire careers, while Coutinho came from Brazil and may take a bit more time to adjust. Whether that argument is valid or not, is up to you, but that is the only thing I can see that separates him from the names you mentioned.

Jack Wilshire - joined Arsenal academy at the age of 9
Cesc Fabregas - joined Barcelona's La Masia at the age of 10
Mario Balotelli - trained in Italy from the age of 15
Davide Santon - trained in Italy from the age of 14

 

[|| WS10 ||]

Coutinho has much less experience then those players you named Europe and South America is totally diffrent give him more games to show what he's worth. The players you named have had European experience at a very young age witch gives them an advantage over Coutinho so your argument is argument is invalid. Judge him at the end of the season.

 

[thatdude]

I have to agree with the two above posts. Wilshire is english and has been in a big club on a work out plan and playing the arsenal system. Same with Bojan, Mario, and Balotelli with their respective nationalities of course. This time last year Pastore was struggling and benched at Palermo, not Inter but Palermo. This year he has adapted and is their star player. Not to mention Javier Pastore is 3 years older then Coutinho. I'm not a Coutinho fan boy either I just think that the examples you used are different. I think the biggest difference is the weight program. If you look at our Primavera team they look like young men, not boys. I believe this is because they are on the same training regiment as the first team.

 

[snake]

n4l...Balotelli was what...18 when he made his inter debut?

Balotelli made his debut after being in Italy for almost his entire youth...add to this his physique meant it was easy for him to mix it with the big boys.

That being said...Compare Marios first 3 games with Coutinhos first 3 games...I'm more impressed with Phillipe. Give the kid time...the bad thing is, its early in the season and expectation are high...Mario came in when he were doing relatively well in the league yes?

 

[n4l]

If he continues to play this way for the entire season, you are right...he is not doing enough. I love the kid, but I expect more from him to be honest. Unless he begins to make more of a contribution, this season will be a disappointment. The only thing i can think of is all the players you mentioned trained in Europe their entire careers, while Coutinho came from Brazil and may take a bit more time to adjust. Whether that argument is valid or not, is up to you, but that is the only thing I can see that separates him from the names you mentioned.

Jack Wilshire - joined Arsenal academy at the age of 9
Cesc Fabregas - joined Barcelona's La Masia at the age of 10
Mario Balotelli - trained in Italy from the age of 15
Davide Santon - trained in Italy from the age of 14

what about Cesc moving from Spain to England? Isn't that also a "change"? or do you think it's "europe" v "south america" and that once you're trained in "europe", you're fine once you're in europe?
same goes with macheda? italy->england
chicarito is already 22, but still, moving from mexico -> england

what are your expectations of coutinho this season?

at least your response was not one of a fanboy

Coutinho has much less experience then those players you named Europe and South America is totally diffrent give him more games to show what he's worth. The players you named have had European experience at a very young age witch gives them an advantage over Coutinho so your argument is argument is invalid. Judge him at the end of the season.

argument is invalid?
sorry to disappoint you but, life (and football) is not "fair" or played on an "equal playing field"....
he is competing directly with these players, whether he is from brazil, nigeria or canada; whether he is big, small, skinny, fat, fast, or slow
why do you think the british are crying about their player development? because the youngsters with less "english" experience are coming in and performing better than the locals....
why do you think lippi was moaning about young italian talent? because the youngsters FROM SOUTH AMERICA with less "italian" experience are coming in and performing better than the locals...
so really, what "european disadvantage" are you talking about??

I'm not a Coutinho fan boy either I just think that the examples you used are different. I think the biggest difference is the weight program. If you look at our Primavera team they look like young men, not boys. I believe this is because they are on the same training regiment as the first team.

i picked Wilshire specifically, since he is the same height and size as coutinho

n4l...Balotelli was what...18 when he made his inter debut?

he was 17

add to this his physique meant it was easy for him to mix it with the big boys.

why is this relevant? is coutinho going to suddenly become huge? he is going to be "mixing" with the big boys forever...is this really an excuse? wow...messi is so huge

That being said...Compare Marios first 3 games with Coutinhos first 3 games...I'm more impressed with Phillipe.

dude....
that's extreme hating there...

0 goals/assists against Cagliari (sub)
2 goals against Reggina @ Reggina (started)
2 goals against Juve IN TURIN (started)

dude
IN WHAT FUCKIN PLANET are you living on?

Give the kid time...the bad thing is, its early in the season and expectation are high

my point is quite the opposite...expectation ON HIM are not that high, especially compared to Santon/balotelli's expectations when they were 17/18

...Mario came in when he were doing relatively well in the league yes?

lol...didn't we just win a treble?




anyways, i guess, based on the responses, that people are saying it's not "fair" to have the same expectations because of (1) his experience and (2) size/weight
question again for you....

who were you comparing santon/balotelli with? players on the primavera like biraghi and alibec?
or better yet, who were santon/balotelli competing against for playing time? primavera or full professionals?
if you're competing against professionals, then does that not mean you're being compared against them?

 

[snake]

I was referring to Serie A debut games, not Coppa Italia.

Coutinho is still 18, so he still has time to grow and build muscle if he works hard enough in the gym...so yes, Balotelli's physique is relevant because it helped him ease in a lot easier. With a smaller body, he would have taken longer.

And there is a massive difference making your debut in the beginning of the season and in the 2nd half of the season. Management/fans and media are a lot harsher during the early stages.

 

[thatdude]

i picked Wilshire specifically, since he is the same height and size as coutinho

Yes he is the same height but he has also been brought up in a big club with a weight training program. Not a second division (until last season) brazilian club. I wouldn't be surprised if Vasco didn't even had a dietitian on the budget. On top of that while Jack was able to gain experience at Bolton last year, Coutinho wasn't aloud to leave Brazil.

I agree Balotelli's first games were better. Who knows perhaps Balotelli is the better talent. However, I think that Coutinho just needs a little time and patience before I can criticize to much. Hell...may even take him a year. But at least he's not shitting the bed out there. Or bat shit crazy like Balo. Overall I'm happy with his contribution so far.

 

[BrP]

He will deliver. He's getting playtime, he'll play for Brazil's NT and he's not meant to score goals like Balotelli was. He's an attacking midfielder, nerazzurri4life. If you want to compare your baby Balotelli with real strikers, let me compare Pele's first Santos games to Balotelli's. Hell, maybe even Romario's first PSV games. Cool? Better yet: Let's compare Coutinho's first seasons on the youth Brazilian teams to Balotelli's first seasons on the youth Italian teams.

This is biased, I know. But if you want to compare Balotelli to someone, do it against the best strikers, not midfielders. Or you should wait until the end of this season so you can compare the whole thing, not only 2 or 3 easier games against tougher ones.

Stop acting like if Balotelli's Messi. Or Ronaldo. Oh, wait. Ronaldo scored 56 goals in 58 matches on his first year as a professional player. Romario scored 163 goals in 167 matches on his first 5 years in Europe. He scored 30 goals in 33 matches on his first La Liga season.

Tell me more about Balotelli's first seasons. I'd love to compare him to real strikers.

Oh, and he's a much better player than what you've seen. Give him some weight and a little more time. Some people that actually *know* him have more to say, I don't need to come here as a fanboy to say something good about the kid.

 

[mario.santon]

I thin cou is huge, compared to Mario...? if Mario is not a dick head.. then he's a great talent as well worthy of good words...
Mario's debut was good, and his 1st games were huge.. He scored doubled against Juve..

Cou was called up for Brazillian NT.. even Adriano was not called when he was that age... So this means he is really something.

and his performance last week confirmed why Rafa put him in the bench when Milito and Pandev were healthy, the kid needs time... and less pressure to give enough space for his knowledge, mental and physical attributes to develop in Serie A and Inter...

 

[snowforum180]

Honestly he didnt score that much when he was at vasco, he is an AM not a striker + he went to a more physical league.

 

[Stefan]

(1) what are your expectations fo coutinho?
(2) are they different to your expectations of santon when he was 18 (a year ago) or balotelli when he was 18?
(3) if so, why?
(4) if you judge him using the same criteria, then how would you really rate him as of today?

(1) For the moment they are limited till he gets used to italy and bulks up. If he doesn't improve by his second season then he should be judge harshly.
(2) Both of them came directly into the inter team from inter primavera so were accustomed to the culture and play and had the physical training needed to be ready for the pro.
(3) Because they were used to the environment, had very little adjusting to do as opposed to coutinho.
(4)6/10 for now. For me he has shown glimpses of his talent but he still has a long way to go. So it is as expected.

 

[Pajo]

(1) For the moment they are limited till he gets used to italy and bulks up. If he doesn't improve by his second season then he should be judge harshly.
(2) Both of them came directly into the inter team from inter primavera so were accustomed to the culture and play and had the physical training needed to be ready for the pro.
(3) Because they were used to the environment, had very little adjusting to do as opposed to coutinho.
(4)6/10 for now. For me he has shown glimpses of his talent but he still has a long way to go. So it is as expected.

:star:

 

[Efrain21C]

I thin cou is huge, compared to Mario...? if Mario is not a dick head.. then he's a great talent as well worthy of good words...
Mario's debut was good, and his 1st games were huge.. He scored doubled against Juve..

Cou was called up for Brazillian NT.. even Adriano was not called when he was that age... So this means he is really something.

and his performance last week confirmed why Rafa put him in the bench when Milito and Pandev were healthy, the kid needs time... and less pressure to give enough space for his knowledge, mental and physical attributes to develop in Serie A and Inter...

the Brazilian coach is using players almost that age, if you look you will see a lot of young talents playing

Also, seeing this discussion, I can add that Coutinho was already playing for the first team younger than anyone of the players you mentioned, he was on the first team at the age of 17, having a lot more time to play against older opponents, the bad thing it was in Brazil Serie B, if not he would had been better