The Italian player debate

Stefan

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Tommi said:
Hamed said:
Okay, then how would you define a frenchman?
Born and raised in France or mother/father is a french.
How would you define it?
I really can´t define who is the most passionate and who´s not.
But you can't say that Vieri is the most passionate inter player.
See the answer above.

Back to Italian player debate or whatever this is.
Stefan said:
This rule is immoral. And I am very please it will never happen. Thank God for the eu.
Are you sure there´s a rule in EU about this? Or is it Uefa´s own rule? I´m asking ´cause i´m not sure.

That question came to my mind yesterday when i was thinking of this issue, EU and sport all together. In Finland, ice-hockey is pop. We have our domestic league and you can have five (5) non-Finnish players in your line up. In Czech Republic, Austria and Slovakia they only allow three (3) foreign players etc. etc. These are all EU countries and if there´s a rule in EU about this, then i´m sure everything would´ve been changed already.

By the way, anyone have heard/read more about FIGC recently? They tried already or will try to enforce a rule that will go into effect next season or the season after, in which 9 of the 18 players called up to every game have to be Italian. If someone knows more about this, please stand up.

Uefa.com said:
Aigner wants fewer foreigners

Outgoing Uefa chief executive Gerhard Aigner has said there should be more home-based players in English football. He also admitted European football's governing body should have done more to stop the influx of overseas players.

"It doesn't make sense to have no English player in an English team," Aigner told.

"There must be a rule that says the English championship should be played by a majority of English players."

He added: "It would help leagues like those in Denmark and Sweden to keep some of their players on board and strengthen their league."

Aigner also described the Bosman rule, which allows out of contract players to move without a fee being paid to their club, as a "disaster for sport and especially for football".

"All of the excesses we know now and many of the problems in the game come back to the decision," he admitted.

"I think we could have revised the transfer rules in a coherent way and kept the rule which limits the movement of the players.

"It is a matter of sport being good or sport going in the wrong way and it is going in the wrong way due to this decision," he added.
Aigner talked about English football there, but he could´ve as well talked about football in general.

And last, the legend know what he´s talking about ->

Johan Cruijff: "If this trend will continue it will have a negative effect. Clubs should always play with six players from it's own country." :star: :star: :star:

Tommi there is defenitly a law about this . It's in the labour law's. If it was challendged in a court in those countries it would immediately be stopped. The G 14 has threatend to sue if any of these proposals of set players from set country gets introduced. So if they are threatening to sue they probaly have the laws to make a lawsuit.
 

Frisko

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Stefan said:
Tommi there is defenitly a law about this . It's in the labour law's. If it was challendged in a court in those countries it would immediately be stopped. The G 14 has threatend to sue if any of these proposals of set players from set country gets introduced. So if they are threatening to sue they probaly have the laws to make a lawsuit.

Exactly. All it takes is one person to sue their employers for discrimination. Even if the court in Finland sentences against that person, he could just appeal to the EU and he would win the case, 100%

Any person with EU nationality has the same rights, any regulations restricting these rights is outside legality.
 

Stefan

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Frisko said:
Stefan said:
Tommi there is defenitly a law about this . It's in the labour law's. If it was challendged in a court in those countries it would immediately be stopped. The G 14 has threatend to sue if any of these proposals of set players from set country gets introduced. So if they are threatening to sue they probaly have the laws to make a lawsuit.

Exactly. All it takes is one person to sue their employers for discrimination. Even if the court in Finland sentences against that person, he could just appeal to the EU and he would win the case, 100%

Any person with EU nationality has the same rights, any regulations restricting these rights is outside legality.

Spot on. :)
 

Tommi

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I know for sure that Finland for example aren´t breaking any laws when we have that five (5) non-Finnish players rule in ice-hockey. Plenty of countries have that foreigner rule and if it would be illegal, then something would´ve been done already. If it would be illegal, it wouldn´t exist.

I´m not so into law, but i tried to search something valuable from internet...couldn´t find. All i found out was that there´s labour law in Italy, labour law in Finland etc, there´s all kinds of national labour laws that differs from others.

And why do the labour law systems of EU member states appear to differ so significantly? Again, if it´s illegal, then how come none is doing anything about it?

Also, if Uefa or whoever wants to get a stricter rule for "foreigners", then they will do it. Now we have that non-EU player rule (we can only sign one player / year or something), just moderate that rule a bit and they might/would be happy about it. I read that Spanish football doesn't allow more than three (3) non-EU players on the field at the same time. I wonder if that´s true?
Hamed said:
The only player who was born and raised outside France was Vieira if I'm not mistaken.
What about these guys then -> Thuram (Guadeloupe), Desailly (Ghana), Karembeu (Lifou), Boumsong (Cameroon), Trezeguet (Argentina), Makelele (Zaire) and there could be more...
 

Frisko

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Here's a link related to football but that can easily be applied to hockey.

http://europa.eu.int/en/agenda/bosman.html

The rules relating to the transfer of players and the limitation on the number of community players in matches between clubs have been declared illegal in an awaited ruling by the Court of Justice on December 15, 1995.

The restrictions imposed by the UEFA as to the number of foreign players allowed to be ligned up on a team is contrary to the rules relative to the free circulation of workers in the European Union.

The exclusion of foreign players is justifiable only when it concerns the composition of nationals teams
.


Now Tommi, I wouldn't be surprised if there are regulations in Finland that go against that.

That's what law is about, and that's where lawyers make all their money. There are laws going agaisnt previous laws and so on and so on.

I was on a training course last month and we were discussing confidential documents. There was an issue with confidentiality and the Freedom of Information Act.

This is just an example of a case when you need to be a lawyer otherwise whatever you say, it can be wrong.
 

Hammoudi

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Yeah Don T, my bad. I actually read that Makelele came to France from Congo (Zaire) when he was old. I knew that Treseguet was born in Argentina, but I think he grew up in France.

Thank God Canada doesn't use your rule, otherwise I wouldn't be Canadian.
 

Tommi

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Frisko said:
Now Tommi, I wouldn't be surprised if there are regulations in Finland that go against that.

That's what law is about, and that's where lawyers make all their money. There are laws going agaisnt previous laws and so on and so on.
First of all, thanks for the link. Second, i agree what you just said. Laws are made to be broken. :)

I move your post here Hamed.
Hamed said:
Well Vic, for Don T and Antti, crying isn't an indicator that you are passionate. I honestly don't know how they can measure a player's passion.
So, crying is an indicator how passionate one can be? :D

Oh...well...

I honestly don´t know how can you measure a player´s passion.
Hamed said:
Thank God Canada doesn't use your rule, otherwise I wouldn't be Canadian.
My rule? :D I´m sure it´s different for you.

I remember reading a story about Jean-Alain Boumsong few years ago. He´s a Cameroonian soccer player, plays for France in case you didn´t know. Boumsong was a quite talented youngster plaing football in Cameroon. Before he had a chance to represent his own country he was contacted by the agents from federation of France´s youth sector football. They talked him into to change a country and try his luck at France. They knew he´s a good player and that´s what their country needs. Boumsong then travelled to France to chase his dream. After playing youth football for US Palaiseau, he signed for Le Havre in the mid-ninties, and made his professional debut in 1998.

And stories like that are very common in France football. No wonder their NT is called "foreign legion". What if every country does the same. Then the whole National Team concept would die, it would be pointless to have national teams.

Another ridiculous example is Camoranesi and how he choosed to play for Italian NT. His great great grandfather was an italian (or something like that). It´s not a common thing in Italia to bring foreign players into NT, that´s why this is even more ridiclous. He´s argentinian (like Trezegay), but Bielsa didn´t call him up to represent his country. Then Trapattoni called him and promised a place for Italian NT for him. Camoranesi then waited few months and still wanted Bielsa to call him. Bielsa never called him and then he decided to represent Italian national team. I was like, wad-de-vuck!!! Oh great, the passion. He isn´t a bad player, but that´s not the point. I just find it extremely ridiculous that it seems quite easy to change a nationality in football.
Hamed said:
Maybe you see it differently but I see allowing foreigners to play as something more than sport.
Sometimes yes, usually that isn´t the case.
 

Antti

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This quote is taken from Hamed's post in another topic.

Antti said he tries to deduce it from press interviews, but that doesn't say anything.

I would be more than interested and grateful to see the paragraph where I said such a thing.

Tommi said:
So, crying is an indicator how passionate one can be? Oh...well...

Excatly my point too.

edit: Players like Camoranesi and Ailton (even a much worse example) are really a cancer of National team football. Phuck to them!
 

Gismo

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Tommi said:
Laws are made to be broken. :)
Too many laws are in this time. But don't go do anything stupid like taking LSD, bro! :p Or maybe you should now! :D:D
 

Gismo

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Did anybody question Vieri's commitment? :eek::D:rollani:

So you know I have a mega sized poster on my wall because of his commitment. He is already sorta like a hero. When he retires he will be so famous in Inter's history.

No matter if he decides to retire his career somewhere else it is almost a crime for an Interista to question his enourmous effort for us over so many years scoring over 100 goals in relatively little amount of matches. That's why I like this type of player! A pure team player with awsome skills.

Thé most underrated striker ever. But that's just too bad.

When I look at that poster it's like looking into a mentor or something too. Great poster! :dielaugh::thumbsup:
 

Hammoudi

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This is where I got my idea about your method Antti:

About non passionate players. I meant to be a bit provocative in my last post and apparently I succeeded. I know and am extremely grateful we have very passionate foreigners (have to add that crying after painful defeats isn`t signal of passion to me) such as J.Zanetti and Cordoba (maybe even Stankovic and Cambiasso too) but everybody is definitely not like them. Followwing statement is my very subjective opinion/presumption but I rather think that domestic players show generally more heart than foreigners.

When you said following statements is my methods, I understood it to be what players say in an interview. What was your meaning then?

And Don T, I think I understand where you are coming from. What the french does, snatching up youngsters, is wrong and I want it to stop. What I meant was players that lived in the country for a while and want to represent it from their own will, not attracted by money or glory hunting.

My examples are players like Kevin Kuranyi and Gerald Asamoah. Both play for the german NT although neither is German. They lived there, speak the language and like the culture. They wanted to play for Germany, although they could've easily played for Hungary or Ghana respetively.

I think if the player lived in the country for a while and wants to join their NT out of love, then he should be given the chance. Clearly, Boumsong, Camronesi and Ailton wanted to do it for the wrong reason, and that's something that should be eliminated.
 

Hammoudi

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I think Flavio Roma read this and decided to give us his 2 cents:

“In Italy the clubs always seem eager to find a foreign buy and that is a problem for those coming through the ranks. Now we find many talented Italian players in the mid-table sides and you can see that influence in the current Nazionale squad.”

This is what I call a pathetic excuse. He obviously couldn't make it in Serie A and is trying to make an excuse for that. I've seen him play many times and he isn't a good keeper.

And his point about the mid-table influence is an evidence. These players aren't that good, really. I'm not making fun of them, but if Italy goes out with a side full of the Toni's, Bonera's and Brazagli's, they would be knocked out in the first phase instead of the second phase as usual.

I'm sure if there is a good italian keeper, most clubs would prefer him. Besides, the only foreign GK's in italy are Dida and the dude with Fiorentinal if I'm not mistaken.
 

Roberto

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you forgot everybody's favourite goalie Frey Hamed.
 

Hammoudi

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Oh Damn, how dare I! The best GK in the world. Pardon-moi Monsieur Frey. :depress:
 

Gismo

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This is what I call a pathetic excuse.
You nailed it so well that I´m impressed. :star:

There is one side of this debate I don´t understand so much that I see all different colors of life in one opinion. :wallbang:

I´m on the side that repulses what I call `Parma` thinking of Italia. But they only do it with great heart which I admire infinitely...
 

Frisko

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Good grief Alex, change your avatar, I can't concentrate on typing with that on my screen! :D:horny:
 

Gismo

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It was the only picture that could imprame the mood of this waiting and being overdone with the upcoming derby hell.
 

Frisko

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Gismo said:
It was the only picture that could imprame the mood of this waiting and being overdone with the upcoming derby hell.

define: imprame - No definitions were found for imprame.
Suggestions - Make sure all words are spelled correctly.


Was that meant to be "improve/lift"?

Alex get your act together, you're scaring the posters with the strangest posts ever! :eek:
 

Mikkel

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That is not the stangest post, he have written, he have made quite many lately. :eek:
 

Tommi

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Hamed said:
And Don T, I think I understand where you are coming from. What the french does, snatching up youngsters, is wrong and I want it to stop. What I meant was players that lived in the country for a while and want to represent it from their own will, not attracted by money or glory hunting.
That´s true, that´s the main reason i hate their national team.
Hamed said:
I think Flavio Roma read this and decided to give us his 2 cents:

“In Italy the clubs always seem eager to find a foreign buy and that is a problem for those coming through the ranks. Now we find many talented Italian players in the mid-table sides and you can see that influence in the current Nazionale squad.”

This is what I call a pathetic excuse.
It may be a pathetic excuse, but the words i highlighted are so true. So true for the big clubs like us. We do everything that we could to sign foreigner(s) instead of italian(s). I doubt we even think about who´s better...We also have many talented players in our youth team, but i doubt Mancini will give them even a chance to show their worth.
 
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